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Thread: Brexit

  1. #1
    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    Brexit

    Dates set 23rd June 2016. Dave came back with a pretty crap deal which hasn't seemed to change peoples mind one way or the other. I'm already getting bored of it and we have 4 months of this to look forward to.

    At the moment i'm inclined to vote to stay in. I like the option of being able to live/work all over the EU without restrictions. And this is genuine question I have asked on twitter to a few exit journalists and MPs.. is if we vote out does that mean all those currently here from EU countries will have to either get a work permit or leave? If so who is going to work in all the factories, sandwich shops (I have never seen a Brit work in a Pret), car washes, elderly care facilities, farms etc etc etc. No one seems to know (or want to answer me!). It's like the Brexit lot just say.. come on guys it will be ok, we are GREAT Britain! Hmmm the cynic in me worries to be honest.

    Anyone else wanna say where they stand currently?




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    Loads of Ozzies and Kiwis work in UK and neither of those countries are in the EU.

    If we vote to come out of EU, then we decide who comes in to the country ourselves. Is that the difference?

  3. #3
    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    I still don't see Ozzies or kiwis doing the really crappy jobs that we don't want to do ourselves. Lowest rung of the ladder they are willing to go down to is working in the Walkabout.




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    Super Moderator dawsey's Avatar
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    I'm fed up with UK taxpayers money propping up poorer EU countries like Greece/Romania etc that really should never have been allowed to join the EU in the first place. The immigration/migrant situation is a big worry too and until the UK adopt a policy similar to Oz where only migrants/immigrants can enter if they have the skills necessary to live here without benefits and at the same time contribute to the UK economy through taxation. I'm a firm believer nobody should have the right, without a UK passport, to benefits for a long time (5yrs) without a checkable and proven record of earning and paying UK taxes. Strikes me as madness that a mother of an EU citizen working here can claim UK benefits without ever coming here. That has to stop, but I fear Dave has not got a good deal with his revised EU membership agreement, so for those reasons, I'm out.
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    I expect this referendum to go the same way as the Scottish referendum, it'll be close and we'll end up staying, but I think fear will win it again, fear of losing jobs and fear of the unknown.

    I'm not sure how I'll vote yet, atm I'd vote out but that could change. (I voted to stay in the Scottish one)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris-one View Post
    I still don't see Ozzies or kiwis doing the really crappy jobs that we don't want to do ourselves. Lowest rung of the ladder they are willing to go down to is working in the Walkabout.
    The point I was making is that immigration is possible without being in the EU.

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    Super Moderator LivinLOS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirgezza View Post
    The point I was making is that immigration is possible without being in the EU.
    Exactly.. My specialist field..

    I would vote out.. While I do think it adds a small overhead to intra national trade the ability to set our own rules and levels for our own benefit, without the balancing and aggregation of the EU, would IMO be beneficial to UK Plc.

  8. #8
    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirgezza View Post
    The point I was making is that immigration is possible without being in the EU.
    Hopefully people will address this then as to what will happen. A specialist car washing visa could happen just hard to envisage.

    This referendum also a proxy leadership election. If brexit no way Cameron can continue. Will be prime minister Boris or Gove not long after.




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    If we stopped giving money to fit people living in this country to sit on their arses all day long, there would be no need for a specialist car washing visa. Controlled immigration and reduce unemployment. Shame no politicians have got the balls to do it.

  10. #10
    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    Cameron even has that mandate. He campaigned on an austerity platform. But when elected he prefers to go after junior doctors then benefit scrounges.




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    Quote Originally Posted by dawsey View Post
    I'm fed up with UK taxpayers money propping up poorer EU countries like Greece/Romania etc that really should never have been allowed to join the EU in the first place. The immigration/migrant situation is a big worry too and until the UK adopt a policy similar to Oz where only migrants/immigrants can enter if they have the skills necessary to live here without benefits and at the same time contribute to the UK economy through taxation. I'm a firm believer nobody should have the right, without a UK passport, to benefits for a long time (5yrs) without a checkable and proven record of earning and paying UK taxes. Strikes me as madness that a mother of an EU citizen working here can claim UK benefits without ever coming here. That has to stop, but I fear Dave has not got a good deal with his revised EU membership agreement, so for those reasons, I'm out.
    Why don't you start using an ID card, to be in your possesion at all times? But no, this is what the Germans started in WW2 and we British don't want that.
    Using ID cards will help a lot cutting down on illegal immigrants. Lot of those guys staying in Calais want to go to England because once they are there no way they can be followed. It would also cut down on illegal (black) jobs.

  12. #12
    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    Brexit

    Dawsey is talking about immigration from other EU countries which is currently ok due to free movement of labour. Not illegal immigration which is another matter all together.




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    Quote Originally Posted by kris-one View Post
    Dates set 23rd June 2016. Dave came back with a pretty crap deal which hasn't seemed to change peoples mind one way or the other. I'm already getting bored of it and we have 4 months of this to look forward to.

    At the moment i'm inclined to vote to stay in. I like the option of being able to live/work all over the EU without restrictions. And this is genuine question I have asked on twitter to a few exit journalists and MPs.. is if we vote out does that mean all those currently here from EU countries will have to either get a work permit or leave? If so who is going to work in all the factories, sandwich shops (I have never seen a Brit work in a Pret), car washes, elderly care facilities, farms etc etc etc. No one seems to know (or want to answer me!). It's like the Brexit lot just say.. come on guys it will be ok, we are GREAT Britain! Hmmm the cynic in me worries to be honest.

    Anyone else wanna say where they stand currently?
    My prediction is that the threat of the Brexit will be used to negotiate a better deal for the UK. Specifically in the benefits area that seems to ruffle quite a few feathers. However both the UK and EU (by EU I mean France and Germany in this case) stand to lose a lot by a Brexit just by putting up barriers to trade.

    You're also right in the fact that the most hardened UKIP voter secretly doesn't want all the Poles to go home because he's gotten used to his car being washed for far less than what it would cost him to get a Brit to do it.

    However, I do agree that immigrants should work and not receive anything more than basic benefits (I.E. Health care) and probably should be charged an NHS fee if they're not from a country with a reciprocal health care agreement like Oz or Canada. Basically the same deal I'm getting as I'm days away from being an immigrant myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirgezza View Post
    Loads of Ozzies and Kiwis work in UK and neither of those countries are in the EU.
    We come in because our parents and grandparents emigrated out of the UK many years ago

    And Youth mobility visas (but they're tightening up the rules on that one).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirgezza View Post
    If we vote to come out of EU, then we decide who comes in to the country ourselves. Is that the difference?
    I think that the EU allowing the UK to implement some form of immigration control would appease most of the Anti-EU people in the UK. Ultimately I think that's what they're negotiating towards, it'll just take a politician with balls to stare down the EU... Should happen any day now... Any day now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kris-one View Post
    Cameron even has that mandate. He campaigned on an austerity platform. But when elected he prefers to go after junior doctors then benefit scrounges.
    Just how much do benefit scroungers actually cost?

    Often the benefits just aren't there. Assuming scroungers are roughly equivalent to an Australian dole bludger (collects welfare, does nothing), if we (Australia) threw all the people off newstart and Ausstudy we'd get about $7 billion out of the $120 billion we spend in welfare. That would be legitimate cases too, not just the bludgers. The major welfare costs in Australia are 1) Old Age Pensions (approx $40b) and 2) Family Benefits (approx $30b). After that we have Disability services ($25b), the other $25b is divided up among the other 4 or 5 line items including $7b for Assistance to youth, the sick and unemployed, approx $7b for veterans services and most of the rest going to Aboriginal services and admin overheads.

    Out of a possible $7b, the effort to chase them down and investigate will end up costing more than the money we'd get back. If we could halve family benefits (middle class welfare) we'd get back twice that without hurting anyone in actual need... But cutting family benefits would be political suicide in Oz.

    Besides this, the elephant in the room is that more money is lost (read: tax evaded) at the big end of town. $7b would be chump change there.

    The problem is, going after benefit scroungers makes for a good headline.
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  15. #15
    Super Moderator LivinLOS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjwx View Post
    I think that the EU allowing the UK to implement some form of immigration control would appease most of the Anti-EU people in the UK.
    But the 2 things are mutually exclusive..

    The whole point of the Eurozone / EU agreements is to create the free movement of goods and services including the free right of travel and labour, within the EU.

    Once you start to say yes but.. And impose restrictions to that free movement of goods services and labor, its no longer the eurozone.
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  16. #16
    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    I'm not concerned about immigrants claiming in work benefits... Providing they are working and tax payers they should be entitled to the same as their colleagues. I hadn't realised that for example child benefit and tax credit could be claimed when the child in question doesn't actually live in the UK. Dave getting concessions to pay at the local rate for where the child lives is fine by me. Now out of work benefits I'm not sure what EU migrants are eligible for but yeah hard to argue that they should receive a penny.




  17. #17
    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjwx View Post
    Just how much do benefit scroungers actually cost?

    Often the benefits just aren't there. Assuming scroungers are roughly equivalent to an Australian dole bludger (collects welfare, does nothing), if we (Australia) threw all the people off newstart and Ausstudy we'd get about $7 billion out of the $120 billion we spend in welfare. That would be legitimate cases too, not just the bludgers. The major welfare costs in Australia are 1) Old Age Pensions (approx $40b) and 2) Family Benefits (approx $30b). After that we have Disability services ($25b), the other $25b is divided up among the other 4 or 5 line items including $7b for Assistance to youth, the sick and unemployed, approx $7b for veterans services and most of the rest going to Aboriginal services and admin overheads.

    Out of a possible $7b, the effort to chase them down and investigate will end up costing more than the money we'd get back. If we could halve family benefits (middle class welfare) we'd get back twice that without hurting anyone in actual need... But cutting family benefits would be political suicide in Oz.

    Besides this, the elephant in the room is that more money is lost (read: tax evaded) at the big end of town. $7b would be chump change there.

    The problem is, going after benefit scroungers makes for a good headline.
    Totally agree. I argued this case on the uk election thread earlier in the year.




  18. #18
    Super Moderator dawsey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain View Post
    Why don't you start using an ID card, to be in your possesion at all times? But no, this is what the Germans started in WW2 and we British don't want that.
    Using ID cards will help a lot cutting down on illegal immigrants. Lot of those guys staying in Calais want to go to England because once they are there no way they can be followed. It would also cut down on illegal (black) jobs.
    Quote Originally Posted by kris-one View Post
    Dawsey is talking about immigration from other EU countries which is currently ok due to free movement of labour. Not illegal immigration which is another matter all together.

    Kris is correct. I should have made that clearer.
    RIP Nicke June 1971 - Jan 2013.

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  19. #19
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    Brexit? Do the math. If it works for Britain, cut those leaching losers loose.
    But if it doesn't STFU and toe the line. About time we worked it out...

  20. #20
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    If you don't like it leave it. Bye bye. No problem.
    But then don't expect benefits or advantageous bizz deals from us.
    Will also be nice not having to care about those illegal economic migrants near the French and Belgian seaports. Just let them leave for the UK, not longer our problem, theirs

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