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Thread: Are we watching the fall of socialism???

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    Senior Member geir's Avatar
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    Are we watching the fall of socialism???

    As communism have fallen I start to wonder if what we are seeing in Europe is the start of the fall of socialism. The migrant crises, the lack of hard working people, short cuts to benefits and general laziness is all signs that makes me wonder how long socialism will last. I don't want to make this into a philosophy thread, but people like Ayn Rand predicted this to happen more than 60 years ago.
    I don't know what to believe for the future, but the old saying that the only people that respect money is the ones that have earned it, comes to mind. The all lefties talk about taking care of each-other without addressing the bill have to come to an end. It's just not enough money in the world for everyone to get free healthcare, high pensions and other benefits.
    Because of benefits my country have turned into the "sickest" country in the west. People are leaving their jobs to get benefits because they don't feel well in the job. It's popular to be mentally unable to work, young kids leaves school to live on benefits and immigrants are breading babies to live from government child support.
    All this things are IMO signs that tells me that socialism have failed and that we may see an end to it. It's going to be messy for sure, riots like we see in Sweden and further south in Europe. But something have to be done....

    Welcome to a new love and hate thread, I think we need one 5555
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    "the old saying that the only people that respect money is the ones that have earned it"

    So, so much truth in that. I don't think the world is falling apart just yet though

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    Senior Member WarProfiteer's Avatar
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    Isnt there a balance between a socialist state and what we see in the US where the top 1% control and own, well, pretty much the other 99% of us.

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    Senior Member geir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarProfiteer View Post
    Isnt there a balance between a socialist state and what we see in the US where the top 1% control and own, well, pretty much the other 99% of us.
    It's pretty much what happened in the communist world as well.....only difference in the communist world it was done by force, in the socialist world by elections.
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    Senior Member marc26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarProfiteer View Post
    Isnt there a balance between a socialist state and what we see in the US where the top 1% control and own, well, pretty much the other 99% of us.
    But that is such a catch phrase thought.

    People harp on that so much and I do think there is too much income inequality but when people trot that out, they are acting like the 1% have it all and everyone else is living in misery.
    Which is so far from the truth
    Still......in the US.........people can go out and be anything they want to be. Achieve anything they have the desire and hard work to do.
    People are living good lives .....great lives in a lot of instances , actually
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    Senior Member geir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve@thaib View Post
    "the old saying that the only people that respect money is the ones that have earned it"

    So, so much truth in that. I don't think the world is falling apart just yet though
    I agree it's not going to fall apart just yet, but I'm sure we will see a huge downgrading of benefits very soon.
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    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    It's a bit of a stretch to call any western countries socialists as it is.. Socialism is about the state owning factors of production, nationalism, social ownership. Little pockets around like state owned energy and railways etc but not much else.




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    Senior Member marc26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kris-one View Post
    It's a bit of a stretch to call any western countries socialists as it is.. Socialism is about the state owning factors of production, nationalism, social ownership. Little pockets around like state owned energy and railways etc but not much else.
    I think what Geir was getting at is more like how he grew up.
    70% with a lot of the necessities like schooling, healthcare taken care of

    And I do think that has sort of come to a head or is going to

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    Quote Originally Posted by geir View Post
    I agree it's not going to fall apart just yet, but I'm sure we will see a huge downgrading of benefits very soon.
    I think you're right there. It's not going to be an easy sell but we are having the debate here about balancing the books and the benefit system is in the firing line. I don't think the majority want to see needy people pitched onto the street but there is some deep offense here at the spectacle of fat lazy slobs breeding for a living.

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    Senior Member geir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kris-one View Post
    It's a bit of a stretch to call any western countries socialists as it is.. Socialism is about the state owning factors of production, nationalism, social ownership. Little pockets around like state owned energy and railways etc but not much else.
    I talk more about social benefits as socialism, where the government through taxes take care of everything from schooling to healthcare and pensions. The way it works in our countries it's just not enough money to cover the future costs for our social systems.
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    It would be nice to think socialism is coming to an end but it is like a cancer, it may go into remission but it'll be back again.

    "Socialism is as philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."- Churchill
    "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."- Thatcher

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    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    Oh jeez, quoting Thatcher. Pretty clear that lots of the problems in banking regulations and the subsequent crashes was direct consequence of her neo liberal economic philosophy.




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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDown View Post
    It would be nice to think socialism is coming to an end but it is like a cancer, it may go into remission but it'll be back again.

    "Socialism is as philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."- Churchill
    "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."- Thatcher
    Not sure that the Churchill quote is overly relevant to what we see today. Churchill's socialism would have been more like communism surely?

    Thatcher was bang on though and that time, the 1970s, was when the real struggle between socialism and capitalism started for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris-one View Post
    Oh jeez, quoting Thatcher. Pretty clear that lots of the problems in banking regulations and the subsequent crashes was direct consequence of her neo liberal economic philosophy.
    She was very much the architect of the big philosophical arm wrestle between left and right in this country though. Thatcher may be demonised in some eyes but 1970s Britain was broken and something had to change. The politics of the left had failed badly.

    I do agree that there is at least a debate to be had over the rights and wrongs of the Thatcher revolution ( and it was a revolution ) and its legacy but anyone who remembers the 70s would surely acknowledge that the brand of socialism that was holding the country to ransom and grinding the economy to a standstill was ruinous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geir View Post
    I talk more about social benefits as socialism, where the government through taxes take care of everything from schooling to healthcare and pensions. The way it works in our countries it's just not enough money to cover the future costs for our social systems.
    So if your parents aren't rich you are not allowed in university; even if you are a briliant student. And if you aren't rich, you have to be happy with second rate health care or none at all. You can have your world.

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    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve@thaib View Post
    She was very much the architect of the big philosophical arm wrestle between left and right in this country though. Thatcher may be demonised in some eyes but 1970s Britain was broken and something had to change. The politics of the left had failed badly.

    I do agree that there is at least a debate to be had over the rights and wrongs of the Thatcher revolution ( and it was a revolution ) and its legacy but anyone who remembers the 70s would surely acknowledge that the brand of socialism that was holding the country to ransom and grinding the economy to a standstill was ruinous.
    I get that. But that brand of socialism prevalent in the 70s it's not even in the same venn diagram as the zeitgeist of today.

    And I don't think there is actually much debate that issues we face today directly stem from the Thatcher/Regan era.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain View Post
    So if your parents aren't rich you are not allowed in university; even if you are a briliant student. And if you aren't rich, you have to be happy with second rate health care or none at all. You can have your world.
    Education and healthcare should be the cornerstones of a civilised society. What should not be is the right to be lazy and to live off the rest of us.

    For me, these are the things we should wish to pay for. If we can remove the cancer of scrounging, cheating, lazy false entitlement then I'm happy to pay more taxes in order to balance the books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris-one View Post
    I get that. But that brand of socialism prevalent in the 70s it's not even in the same venn diagram as the zeitgeist of today.

    And I don't think there is actually much debate that issues we face today directly stem from the Thatcher/Regan era.
    I don't know what a venn diagram is

    I think that it very much is a debate because we can't know where we would have finished up otherwise. Would we have been able to buy our own homes for instance? Without banking reforms maybe not because we were all supposed to be solid proletariats with a steady job in a soulless factory going home to a dutiful wife.

    It's simplistic to blame the politics of 30 years ago for the problems we have today. We would have had problems anyway because there's no way we were slipping gracefully into some sort of utopia, the country was cattle trucked and something had to change. Who knows how else it would have changed if it were someone else other than Thatcher?

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    Quote Originally Posted by geir View Post
    As communism have fallen I start to wonder if what we are seeing in Europe is the start of the fall of socialism. The migrant crises, the lack of hard working people, short cuts to benefits and general laziness is all signs that makes me wonder how long socialism will last. I don't want to make this into a philosophy thread, but people like Ayn Rand predicted this to happen more than 60 years ago.
    So there is not a problem with migrants in the US, or are we witnessing the fall of Capitalism as well?

    The lack of working people is mostly due to less people being born. The migrants may actually be a big plus on that account.

    Did Ayn Rand predict that before or after she began receiving social security?

    Is Norway a socialist country in your eyes? OK, stupid question - but I had to ask, as Norway is doing better than the US. Norway is the number 7th richest country per capita in 2014, Unites States is number 10. All of the Scandinavian countries is in top 25. That's hardly hitting rock bottom.

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    Senior Member geir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain View Post
    So if your parents aren't rich you are not allowed in university; even if you are a briliant student. And if you aren't rich, you have to be happy with second rate health care or none at all. You can have your world.
    What about scholarships and student loans?? You can still choose what to do with your life, and it's up to you to make it a good one. A lot of the laziness and gold diggers we see today wouldn't have existed if people had to take care of themselves. It would of cause be some sad stories, but I guess that's a part of human life.
    That said I'm not a fan of zero taxation, but something have to be done to make peoples work-ethic come back to what it used to be. More social welfare is for sure not the answer.
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