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Thread: paris ...now ,look at the news

  1. #721
    Senior Member Waharoa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faultytowers View Post
    But we can't bomb the Saudis ........... they are our allies !!!!!
    Maybe we can some how engineer it for ISIS to attack Saudi... those infidel-loving apostates... before we take them out...

  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waharoa View Post
    Maybe we can some how engineer it for ISIS to attack Saudi... those infidel-loving apostates... before we take them out...
    Much better if the other way around.

  3. #723
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    Maryam Namazie and the Shame of the Pro-Islamist Left | Quillette

    We refuse to renounce our critical spirit out of fear of being accused of “Islamophobia,” a wretched concept that confuses criticism of Islam as a religion and stigmatization of those who believe in it.

    We defend the universality of the freedom of expression, so that a critical spirit can be exercised in every continent, with regard to each and every abuse and dogma.

    We appeal to democrats and independent spirits in every country that our century may be one of enlightenment and not obscurantism.

    That so many on the Left fail to see the importance and value of such sentiments is a shame. That they contrive to re-describe them as something sinister and ignoble is a disgrace.



  4. #724
    Senior Member Waharoa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuhio View Post
    Much better if the other way around.
    Bit tricky when they are just a "legitimate" form of the other...

  5. #725
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homer View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with that summation. I don't remember anyone not wanting solutions and the de brainwashing of the faith to me seems an important step.
    Ask kuhio or other absolutists how they would deal with radicalisation and indirect incitement. Think you'll find in fact that the left is much more agreeable to deal with if you actually start probing.

  6. #726
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    Sorry, just more abject nonsense.

    Give me quotes or arguments from real progressives, then we can at least have a discussion. I cannot be put in charge of defending your imagined enemies...

  7. #727
    Senior Member Waharoa's Avatar
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    I know this is a joke at the expense of the Left... but still found it funny...

    The Regressive Left are annoyed at ISIS for not using Hybrid Toyota vehicles.

    Crab Stixs and Dkdude like this.

  8. #728
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    Ask kuhio or other absolutists how they would deal with radicalisation and indirect incitement. Think you'll find in fact that the left is much more agreeable to deal with if you actually start probing.
    I'm not arguing or attempting to divert the conversation, just making the statement that continued evasion of addressing where the problem lies will almost certainly mean that exactly like the Nazi's, we will continue to let the radicalization of Islam build to a crescendo...and it wont end like the fifth symphony...

    It is multi faceted of course. But in my opinion the two absolute main criteria in the argument is our acceptance and one could say support of the enemy to further our meddling in the ME, and the basic fundamentalism of the Islamic religion and the fact that it IS morphing into an antisocial and very problematic platform which requires immediate attention.

    Denying the later of those statements will ensure we don't understand the problem and therefore wont embrace a satisfactory solution.

  9. #729
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    Sorry, just more abject nonsense.

    Give me quotes or arguments from real progressives, then we can at least have a discussion. I cannot be put in charge of defending your imagined enemies...
    K, here is one from the article itself. Did you read it?

    both the Goldsmiths Feminist Society and the LGBTQ+ Society quickly released statements pledging their support and solidarity with ISOC.“We support them,” FemSoc soberly declared:
    …in condemning the actions of the Atheist, Secularist and Humanist Society and agree that hosting known islamophobes at our university creates a climate of hatred.
    Two days later, the LGBTQ+ Society came up with this:
    We condemn AHS and online supporters for their islamophobic remarks, attitudes, and harassment. If they feel intimidated, we urge them to look at the underpinnings of their ideology. We find that personal and social harm enacted in the name of ‘free speech’ is foul, and detrimental to the wellbeing of students and staff on campus.
    In a positively craven gesture, the Goldsmiths Student Union has since written to Namazie requesting that the recording of the event be removed from youtube. (She refused.)

  10. #730
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    Don't really see an interesting discussion be had about this from my standpoint...

    I can only affirm that I personally would never put any restrictions on the freedom to express ideas and opinions. And neither do I know of any fellow Progressives who disagrees with that. Same goes for advocating in favor of suppressing accurate facts and the truth in general, as it goes completely contrary to what we stand for within the long Enlightenment tradition.

    Perhaps a more interesting discussion to witness would be you right-wingers hashing it out how to realistically deal with the radical Imams...

  11. #731
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, I certainly do believe there are cases around where legitimate speech is actually suppressed. You're mostly using cases from US campuses, but organizations like the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) are compiling data --- although anecdotally --- of this happening on all sides.

    Within the past decades, we've actually seen positive movements when it comes to outright racism. And I believe I have the right to call out legitimate racism and bigotry whenever I encounter it. I still want those contrary voices to be heard though... and eventually being ridiculed by the majority. Hopefully...

    Yet, I still don't want radical Imams around brainwashing and inciting malleable, young minds into committing horrible crimes. That's not the exchange of ideas and opinions that our forefathers fought and died for in the name of free speech. Seems to be more of an issue on the right flank though...

  12. #732
    Senior Member Waharoa's Avatar
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    The 102nd amendment.. the right to bear ideas....

  13. #733
    Senior Member tnlawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    Yet, I still don't want radical Imams around brainwashing and inciting malleable, young minds into committing horrible crimes. That's not the exchange of ideas and opinions that our forefathers fought and died for in the name of free speech. Seems to be more of an issue on the right flank though...
    So now you're going to tell us what our forefathers REALLY meant when they said people will not be deprived of free speech? The statement is unambiguous on its face and doesn't need interpretation. We have to get the radical imams/mosques to the point where they're viewed the same way as the Westboro Baptist nut jobs. More speech, not less.
    Get out there in the game, don't sit up in the bleachers. That is the philosophy of pimps and preachers.

  14. #734
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    So how's that working out then?

    Seriously, I am all in favor of free speech as well. But I put restrictions on actively incitement to violent criminal acts. As do US laws, but with an arbitrary immediate clause. Nothing even close to what our forefathers fought and died for. There will always be ambiguity and interpretation in free speech legislation. In fact, getting past that in the overall discussion would be a huge step in the right direction.

    EDIT: So would you disagree with Homer about shutting down the radical Imams on speech and incitement?
    Last edited by sundancekid; 9th December 2015 at 01:40.

  15. #735
    Senior Member tnlawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    So how's that working out then?

    Seriously, I am all in favor of free speech as well. But I put restrictions on actively incitement to violent criminal acts. As do US laws, but with an arbitrary immediate clause. Nothing even close to what our forefathers fought and died for. There will always be ambiguity and interpretation in free speech legislation. In fact, getting past that in the overall discussion would be a huge step in the right direction.

    EDIT: So would you disagree with Homer about shutting down the radical Imams on speech and incitement?
    I would not be in favor of shutting down the imams unless they were inciting immediate violence. Would be nice if the PC crowd would stop trying to stamp out speech critical of Islam. Our own attorney general is threatening to prosecute anti-muslim speech FFS. Opposition speech and a debate in the public forum is exactly what we need.
    Last edited by tnlawyer; 9th December 2015 at 02:56.
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  16. #736
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    Exactly what did the AG say that you objected to?

  17. #737
    Senior Member tnlawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    Exactly what did the AG say that you objected to?
    She said her biggest concern isn't ISIS, but it's the anti-Muslim backlash. Is there a history in the US of Muslims being randomly attacked and killed by gangs of rabid Muslim haters that I'm not aware of? Also her promise to prosecute anti-Muslim speech that "edges toward violence". What sort of standard is that and who decides what "edges toward violence"? If I say that these radical Muslim terrorists are psychotic and deserve to die, am I getting thrown in jail? Why are they insisting on limiting speech instead of encouraging more speech?

    The lengths to which the left are willing to go to appease Muslims is mind boggling. Yet it really depends on who it is doesn't it?. Their willingness to appease and call for calm isn't universal or consistent. That nut in SC that shot up the black church and there were immediate calls to ban the confederate flag. No calls for calm and understanding. Farrakhan spews hatred and violence towards white people and Jews non stop and yet you hear crickets from the left. Are they going to prosecute him? Hell no. They pick and choose who they will coddle and who they will throw to the wolves.
    Last edited by tnlawyer; 9th December 2015 at 03:42.
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  18. #738
    Senior Member Stillearly's Avatar
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    Immediate calls .... shouldn't the Confederate flag have been banned when they lost the civil war ?
    'If it floats, flies or fcuks , it's cheaper to rent"

  19. #739
    Senior Member tnlawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillearly View Post
    Immediate calls .... shouldn't the Confederate flag have been banned when they lost the civil war ?
    Who gives a shit? It's a flag. I couldn't care less about it. The point is that the left in the US is picking and choosing who they will promote/protect and who they will prosecute when it comes to what should be free speech for all of us.
    Get out there in the game, don't sit up in the bleachers. That is the philosophy of pimps and preachers.

  20. #740
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnlawyer View Post
    Who gives a shit? It's a flag. I couldn't care less about it. The point is that the left in the US is picking and choosing who they will promote/protect and who they will prosecute when it comes to what should be free speech for all of us.
    Which is the hallmark of all would be censors since the dawn of time.

    People who do not understand the concept of free speech and why it is important never see that they are just following in a long tradition of wanting to ban speech that they don't like. When actually implemented, it makes you an immediate hypocrite, and ends up backfiring as the people you are trying to shut up will now have a legitimate grievance that they are oppressed.

    And now we see SDK defining free speech as a "right wing" issue. Imagine that! Sad to say but it is apparently true nowadays, the left is only for free speech as long as it is speech that they like. The modern day left stands in dishonorable contrast to the generations before it.
    Homer likes this.

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