Page 1 of 34 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 672
Like Tree143Likes

Thread: Endeavor versus circumstance.. Luck in Social development.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Thin White Duke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Afrique du Sud
    Posts
    2,891

    Endeavor versus circumstance.. Luck in Social development.

    Guess they were unlucky and suddenly became lucky all of a sudden.

    History and all that.

    It just happened out the blue.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,490
    Quote Originally Posted by Waharoa View Post

    ... but if all odds were even...
    Since the geography of the planet is not something socially constructed, the misfortunes of lagging groups are not automatically a social injustice, even if they can be conceived of as injustices from some cosmic perspective, in the sense that many peoples have suffered serious deprivations through no fault of their own. Putting the onus on society by calling these deprivations a violation of social justice may be verbal sop to those who are lagging, but it points them away from the paths by which other lagging groups have advanced themselves in the past, by pointing them toward blaming other people.

    Multiculturalism, like the caste system (since you mentioned it), tends to freeze people where the accident of birth has placed them. Unlike the caste system, multiculturalism holds out the prospect that all cultures being equal, one's life chances should be the same, and that it is society's fault if these chances are not the same. Although both the caste system and multiculturalism suppress individual opportunities, they differ primarily in that the caste system preaches resignation to one's fate and multiculturalism preaches resentment of one's fate. Another major difference between the caste system and multiculturalism is that no one is was likely to claim that the caste system was a boon to the lower castes.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Thin White Duke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Afrique du Sud
    Posts
    2,891
    Quote Originally Posted by Waharoa View Post
    They are the exceptions rather than the rule are they not? Maybe you are a Nelson Mandela type... who knows...
    This is bordering on racism

  4. #4
    Senior Member Waharoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,158
    Quote Originally Posted by kuhio View Post
    Since the geography of the planet is not something socially constructed, the misfortunes of lagging groups are not automatically a social injustice, even if they can be conceived of as injustices from some cosmic perspective, in the sense that many peoples have suffered serious deprivations through no fault of their own. Putting the onus on society by calling these deprivations a violation of social justice may be verbal sop to those who are lagging, but it points them away from the paths by which other lagging groups have advanced themselves in the past, by pointing them toward blaming other people.

    Multiculturalism, like the caste system (since you mentioned it), tends to freeze people where the accident of birth has placed them. Unlike the caste system, multiculturalism holds out the prospect that all cultures being equal, one's life chances should be the same, and that it is society's fault if these chances are not the same. Although both the caste system and multiculturalism suppress individual opportunities, they differ primarily in that the caste system preaches resignation to one's fate and multiculturalism preaches resentment of one's fate. Another major difference between the caste system and multiculturalism is that no one is was likely to claim that the caste system was a boon to the lower castes.
    I've read your post five times and am still not sure of your point? Except that the caste system and multiculturalism are the same thing except one of them uncomplainingly accepts their lot in life.... and the other lot resents it? And as we know that multiculturalism doesn't really offer a level playing field for all... the idea is not to resent that handicap... but rather to triumph despite it...

    Very true.. but not so easy to do... or everyone would be doing it... 55

  5. #5
    Senior Member Waharoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,158
    Quote Originally Posted by Thin White Duke View Post
    This is bordering on racism
    I've already admitted to being racist.... though not sure of the racism in that post?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Thin White Duke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Afrique du Sud
    Posts
    2,891
    Just cos you admitted being racist doesn't negate the fact that people like Mandela and Tutu have worked for all they have.....there is no 'luck' involved.

    Then to say they are the 'exceptions' is something many may take badly.

    But anyway as is obvious I disagree with the idea of 'luckiness' which is more my point.

  7. #7
    Senior Member billpay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    2,036
    I was taught and found out through my own experiences, two things about luck:

    1. The harder you work, the luckier you get.
    2. Luck follows hard work.
    The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,490
    Quote Originally Posted by Waharoa View Post
    I've read your post five times and am still not sure of your point? Except that the caste system and multiculturalism are the same thing except one of them uncomplainingly accepts their lot in life.... and the other lot resents it? And as we know that multiculturalism doesn't really offer a level playing field for all... the idea is not to resent that handicap... but rather to triumph despite it...

    Very true.. but not so easy to do... or everyone would be doing it... 55
    Well first, most of the trouble comes from the belief that the world being unfair and uneven is something that is unnatural and possible for humans balance all of the inequality of the world, account for it, and fix it. The best you can do in this regard is to have the same rules apply to everyone, equally. Making up for cosmic injustices can only be attempted by giving up the principle that the same rules apply to everyone. They are mutually exclusive.

    In terms for people escaping from lagging cultures. It actually is pretty easy to do. What makes it hard is being told that maintaining bad cultural norms is no impediment to success. Then when the inevitable results of bad cultural norms leading to failure comes, saying that it the fault of the "privileged" people who are to blame for keeping them down. Therefore, no need to change the culture and the cycle continues.

    It certainly hard for instance for the American Black community, who have internalized the idea that they should celebrate their cultural norms and maintain them to the point where they denigrate their own who buck this idea by telling them to stop "acting white".

  9. #9
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,142
    Quote Originally Posted by Thin White Duke View Post
    Guess they were unlucky and suddenly became lucky all of a sudden.

    History and all that.

    It just happened out the blue.
    Well, I kinda left it intentionally provocative. The pure, dumb luck theory, or PDL 555. The first component of course is historical, and has to do with how the west came to rule the world. Generally speaking you have those who would prescribe to the notion that western civilization suddenly sprung up from the Greeks, and we've kind of locked in superiority ever since. A PDL theorist would go back much further until the end of the last ice age, and argue that geography is by far the biggest single component to explain our current domination. The largest steps came in the wake of the industrial revolution some 200 years ago of course... but try to dissect those causes and effects... and I think you'll find that the west progressed mostly by accident.

    Then there are the personal achievements and merits that we earn during the course of our own lifetimes. Of course, not all of that is luck. And I'm not talking about extraordinary citizens here like Mandela or Tutu. Most societies have those. But rather the social development of the average citizen within a society or culture. Trace all that back and I think you'll find that most life stories are inextricably and uncomfortably linked to pure, dumb luck, much more so than superior work ethics or superior minds. I know that I have been extremely lucky being born where I was, and I most certainly cannot compare my achievements to someone born at the same time in sub-Saharan Africa. Yes, I have made personal choices a long the way of course, but the range of choices available to me being born white and in Norway are so far superior.

    Ok, this is a long and complex discussion, so I'll stop there. Again, I have no problems with people disagreeing with me, but I suspect that most people dislike the PDL theory as it would somehow diminish their own achievements in life. I don't look at it that way. Then think about what the alternative is... Anyway, suggested popular reading would be Jarred Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, as well as books from Ian Morris. Yes, the below clip is an hour long (ugh!), but goes into much more detail about how the west came to rule. Should be mandatory viewing for any western narcissist 555.

    Last edited by sundancekid; 10th January 2017 at 09:48.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,385
    Quote Originally Posted by Waharoa View Post
    Or the most accurate...

    I think SDK is talking historically... We have pure dumb luck because everything depends on the luck of cause and effect... luck of timing, luck of environment and luck of legacy (The strongest luck of all). You can add in your hard work... vision, drive etc.. but you are still sitting on one great big historical leg-up... that has taken hundreds, maybe thousands of years to create... our time will pass and we will be replaced... privilege is fickle historically... it's just a matter of when... not if... history has proven it over and over again... so why are we any different? Or are we the immortals?
    Certainly not the most accurate. Otherwise you (or he) is saying that you are lucky simply to be born white, meaning you are unlucky if you are black.

    Now while you, I and most of the rest of the world us racist to some degree, sdk has stated that he absolutely isn't and abhors any thought on racist perception or views.
    So i think once again you are making excuses for him, or at least putting words into his mouth.

    Imo he was trying to denegrate anyone who may be successful, or was just being vindictive towards me after my correct claims that without employing people, you really have no significant insight into the real life effects of many of these progressive liberal changes and rules they dream up.

    If white people from a slightly disadvantaged background can be successful in business, the the same luck rule and oercentage should apply to coloured people from the same country?
    Both my parents were left leaning politically, although not rabid like some on here.
    Maybe my swing towards business and the centre is something to do with that extra 25 generational IQ points 55
    Although unfortunately it seems to have faltered with me. My offspring bless their hearts, while no where near unintelligent certainly aren't my IQ superior. Although they are smart enough to see much of the ridiculous wasted energy and false so called improvements a lot of these liberal changes make to the world.
    Just think, their kids will be well into the genious bracket! I'm already proud....

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    1,385
    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    Well, I kinda left it intentionally provocative. The pure, dumb luck theory, or PDL 555. The first component of course is historical, and has to do with how the west came to rule the world. Generally speaking you have those who would prescribe to the notion that western civilization suddenly sprung up from the Greeks, and we've kind of locked in superiority ever since. A PDL theorist would go back much further until the end of the last ice age, and argue that geography is by far the biggest single component to explain our current domination. The largest steps came in the wake of the industrial revolution some 200 years ago of course... but try to dissect those causes and effects... and I think you'll find that the west progressed mostly by accident.

    Then there are the personal achievements and merits that we earn during the course of our own lifetimes. Of course, not all of that is luck. And I'm not talking about extraordinary citizens here like Mandela or Tutu. Most societies have those. But rather the social development of the average citizen within a society or culture. Trace all that back and I think you'll find that most life stories are inextricably and uncomfortably linked to pure, dumb luck, much more so than superior work ethics or superior minds. I know that I have been extremely lucky being born where I was, and I most certainly cannot compare my achievements to someone born at the same time in sub-Saharan Africa. Yes, I have made personal choices a long the way of course, but the range of choices available to me being born white and in Norway are so far superior.

    Ok, this is a long and complex discussion, so I'll stop there. Again, I have no problems with people disagreeing with me, but I suspect that most people dislike the PDL theory as it would somehow diminish their own achievements in life. I don't look at it that way. Then think about what the alternative is... Anyway, suggested popular reading would be Jarred Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel, as well as books from Ian Morris. Yes, the below clip is an hour long (ugh!), but goes into much more detail about how the west came to rule. Should be mandatory viewing for any western narcissist 555.

    So why haven't these sub african etc cultures not progressed then?
    The western style "lucky" example has been around to be observed and compared for well over 200 years?

    Perpetually unlucky?

  12. #12
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,142
    Quote Originally Posted by kuhio View Post
    In terms for people escaping from lagging cultures. It actually is pretty easy to do. What makes it hard is being told that maintaining bad cultural norms is no impediment to success. Then when the inevitable results of bad cultural norms leading to failure comes, saying that it the fault of the "privileged" people who are to blame for keeping them down. Therefore, no need to change the culture and the cycle continues.
    Well, yes and no I guess. I've said this before, but I do agree as well that certain societies and cultures are much too quick to only blame others for their own ills. That can indeed lead to a cycle of decay and self-destruction. And I am of course talking about the average Trump voter here 555. Rarely in history have we seen so many white folks playing the victim card... I'd say that's progress.

    Seriously though, I do believe you have a point in that minority cultures are also at times too quick to blame others. Absolutely no doubt in my mind though that the range of choices available are different. That said, I believe that this range of opportunity is much wider today for an African American than it was in the 50s and 60s. Affirmative action is not the cause of the problems that these cultures face. So one should absolutely take responsibility for one's own life, but also recognize that the opportunities presented are mostly due to... erm... pure, dumb luck.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,490
    The success of Chinese minorities pretty much everywhere they go has been a hell of a run.....lucky bastards.....

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    781
    I would be willing to bet (some of M26 money...555) that they used to say "You are lucky to be born Roman"...

  15. #15
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,142
    Quote Originally Posted by Homer View Post
    So why haven't these sub african etc cultures not progressed then?
    The western style "lucky" example has been around to be observed and compared for well over 200 years?

    Perpetually unlucky?
    Yes, mostly due to being unlucky in terms of geography. Look at the early civilizations that emerged after the last glacial, and they are very much bound by latitude. The Fertile Crescent, the Indus Valley, China, the Aztecs etc. Try growing a crop of wheat in sub-Saharan Africa and you are simply out of luck. It's not because they too lazy or not smart enough to do it, right? So what has been the main driver of civilizations over the past thousands of years is agriculture. As well as the domestication of animals, which also has continental limits.

    That changed somehow in the past 200 years, with the industrial revolution. And yes, I will make the claim that the west came out the winner in that race mostly because of luck as well. Of course, by then we had already conquered wast amounts of land and resources.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    The cold Wong
    Posts
    1,591
    "Rarely in history have we seen so many white folks playing the victim card... I'd say that's progress" !


    What a self centred, hate fuelled, spiteful thing to say, let alone think !

  17. #17
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,142
    Quote Originally Posted by obes View Post
    "Rarely in history have we seen so many white folks playing the victim card... I'd say that's progress" !

    What a self centred, hate fuelled, spiteful thing to say, let alone think !
    Not at all. It's actually kind of funny watching the Trump supporters playing the victim card over and over again. If they are unable to find a job, then it's mostly due to outside factors, like immigration or regulations or whatnot. Never themselves of course. And this comes right back to being born in certain districts or areas at certain times. Being born in the rural Midwest today has given you limited opportunities compared to the past decades. Unlucky for them. It's not that I wish for them to suffer of course, but sometimes it's necessary to then realign with reality.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,490
    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    Well, yes and no I guess. I've said this before, but I do agree as well that certain societies and cultures are much too quick to only blame others for their own ills. That can indeed lead to a cycle of decay and self-destruction. And I am of course talking about the average Trump voter here 555. Rarely in history have we seen so many white folks playing the victim card... I'd say that's progress.

    Seriously though, I do believe you have a point in that minority cultures are also at times too quick to blame others. Absolutely no doubt in my mind though that the range of choices available are different. That said, I believe that this range of opportunity is much wider today for an African American than it was in the 50s and 60s. Affirmative action is not the cause of the problems that these cultures face. So one should absolutely take responsibility for one's own life, but also recognize that the opportunities presented are mostly due to... erm... pure, dumb luck.
    I agree that before the civil rights act, in the days of Jim Crow and obviously slavery we did not have a playing field where the law applied equally to everybody. In those days, the range of choices as you say really was limited, by law. However since the passage of the Civil Rights Act, that has not been the case. Yet the Black community in the US has gone backwards in most respects.

    This is because the problem facing Blacks in the US is their own culture, which was by the way learned from whites in the antebellum South. It is understandably jarring also for a group of people to suddenly be made equal under the law. As fervently as black America always longed for freedom, envisioning it as the promised land, the actual experience of freedom involved a sense of loss. All that equal opportunity gives you is the arena to play in where the same rules apply to all. A janitor before the Civil Rights Act is still a Janitor after. Opportunity is not results. Results require the hard work of building a cultural experience steeped in cultural norms that lead to success. This is hard work and starting from the beginning there will be a lot of failure. It also takes time. Failing is humiliating and when given the opportunity to blame others for your failures rather than yourself, most will blame others. What has been criminal since the 60's is that we lie about this. We tell people that your failures are due to others keeping you down, that the system is rigged against you, that you are a victim. In that environment, nobody could succeed. In fact, this narrative is the primary reason blacks have not progressed in the US to their potential.

    In fact, this narrative has much more to do with whites disassociating from racism, and gaining back lost moral authority than it does helping the black community. What would help the black community is to tell the truth. That culture matters, and until culture changes, nothing else will.
    Easycpl likes this.

  19. #19
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,142
    Quote Originally Posted by kuhio View Post
    The success of Chinese minorities pretty much everywhere they go has been a hell of a run.....lucky bastards.....
    Yes, there are of course cultural differences as well. But we don't really see mass migrations from China anymore. When they emigrated to Thailand, they were given (or took 555) several advantages. It's not as if they just drifted ashore in a boat dirt poor, starting form scratch...

    As a complete aside... I've always been interested in alternative historical scenarios... and it would be interesting to speculate how the world would look today had the Chinese actually conquered the Americas in the early 1400s. I know, the historical evidence is not irrefutable that they made it so far, but they certainly had the ships, technology and manpower to do so. And given the fact that the Europeans mostly conquered the continent with the germs they brought along... the Chinese could have carried similar germs given their domestication of animals.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,490
    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    Yes, there are of course cultural differences as well. But we don't really see mass migrations from China anymore. When they emigrated to Thailand, they were given (or took 555) several advantages. It's not as if they just drifted ashore in a boat dirt poor, starting form scratch...

    As a complete aside... I've always been interested in alternative historical scenarios... and it would be interesting to speculate how the world would look today had the Chinese actually conquered the Americas in the early 1400s. I know, the historical evidence is not irrefutable that they made it so far, but they certainly had the ships, technology and manpower to do so. And given the fact that the Europeans mostly conquered the continent with the germs they brought along... the Chinese could have carried similar germs given their domestication of animals.
    There are countless examples of Chinese living as poor minorities, massively discriminated against by the local majority, and not individual examples, as an entire group, succeeding massively. Jews also.

    Culture is pretty much everything now. Last ice age notwithstanding.

Page 1 of 34 12311 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •