UK Election 2017

[Changone]

They are building up huge student loans that they never will be able to pay back. They are using the system for what it's worth and cost the tax payers shit loads of money (that said they are not that many, but the people doing it is for sure annoying).

This is a problem here too.
We have many students who graduate and then go overseas to the highest bidder.
They avoid repaying their student loans altogether, and I don't agree with that at all.
Support people getting their first degree and put a decent time limit on either repaying it, or, if not doing some kind of national service. That should prompt them to get a job and pay the thing off..

[Thin White Duke]

Not sure what you mean... so only kids with rich parents will be ensured a higher education? Talk about depleting the gene pool...

Show me any society with free, or near free, education that has collapsed because of it. Plenty have collapsed because of ignorance, mind you.

What Geir said in his post SDK.

In our case the system is being thoroughly abused.....30 year plus guys becoming permanent students meanwhile leading younger students in protest action....he was actually jailed for public violence and has been charged.

[Waharoa]

I don't think geir's post goes far enough. We need to be more pro-active.... incentivise it so that companies take on people before they graduate... then you'll know exactly what the demand is for each study area....

[dontpanic]

I've no problem with education being subsidised but a free for all is just waste. I worked in 3rd level for over ten years and believe me students mainly took it for granted, were just going with the flow or passing time while they waited out the recession or for the emergency services to start recruiting again. I think most students should contribute something and not just from general taxation when they get a job which is the usual argument for funding 3rd level. If it's in general taxation it can just get spent on something else, whatever crisis the government has stumbled into this time. If it's in the form of a loan then it's targeted. It also means if people emigrate then they still have to pay back the money. I spent over ten grand doing a part time degree with the Open University and got 6% of it back in tax, not much incentive there.

There's also the problem that everyone seems to think they need a degree which is nonsense, I remember big multinationals saying just give us someone with 2-3 years training and we can do the rest, now students are almost afraid to leave with a cert or diploma as they're seen as being hardly worth the paper they are written on. In Germany it's completely the opposite where I think it's almost 50/50 with people going to 3rd level and apprenticeships.

[sundancekid]

No, I do not think everyone needs a degree either. But I also believe that if the job or skill you have specifically trained or apprenticed for becomes obsolete... having a basic training in the liberal arts will prepare you much better if or when you need to shift careers. As the data I've seen also shows. Today there's (in my opinion) too much emphasize on STEM or learning a specific skill. But real creativity and innovation only occur when you have cross-pollination of ideas between numerous groups. Look at Silicon Valley today... Or Zuck or Jobs for that matter.

We do see the emergence of hybrid-programs, but they are far fewer than what we actually need. Liberal arts should be more included in more traditional STEM education, and more technology should be included in more traditional liberal arts training. Absolutely no doubt in my mind that learning about the history of language and logic has helped me immensely as a programmer / designer. And also in life, I believe 555. Might we be reminded again that the first scientists were also philosophers? In just the next few decades... we will see a massive displacement of labor mainly through automation.

But yes, I also do know quite a few perpetual students. Obviously that is not a good thing, but I also don't believe it is a major problem either. Regardless of everything else, we still need historians, archaeologists etc. that may not churn out immediate profits for shareholders... but are fact immensely important for humanity. I'd take any of those over a useless hedge-fund manager with no real productive contribution to society whatsoever 555.

[Thin White Duke]

But... but what about all those jobs about to be lost to AI?

Just carry on blindlessly funding....for nothing?

[Thin White Duke]

Bottom line is ideology is not in line with reality.

We all love the idea of 'education for all' and 'free immigration' etc...but at the end of the day what happens?

Human nature kicks in and all those idealistic views get thrown out the window.

[geir]

Bottom line is ideology is not in line with reality.

We all love the idea of 'education for all' and 'free immigration' etc...but at the end of the day what happens?

Human nature kicks in and all those idealistic views get thrown out the window.

And the funny thing is that every time someone have screamed revolution, things have gone tits up 555

[sundancekid]

Blindlessly funding what exactly? If the history of the human race has taught us anything it's that we need all kinds in order to survive. Our Renaissance or the Era of Enlightenment wasn't just about profits or employment or scientific knowledge, but also about the arts and the humanities. It may sound like fluffiness or unimportant to some, but that is what has defined us since the cave paintings or the invention of language etc. Or the invention of the internet for that matter. The ROT may not immediately show up on the next quarterly report, but that's the core investments we've been making for hundreds of thousands of years.

The things we're facing right now is just about as big as we've ever faced. No, I don't think we will see true AI or anything resembling a singularity in our lifetimes, or even the next generation. What we're seeing though is advanced machine learning at a scale that should both frighten and excite us. Most people may not be aware of this, but the number of jobs that will be lost --- even in middle management --- is truly staggering. The next question to ask is how the future middle-class consumer / employee will be built. I'd sincerely want the input from people trained in the humanities to be part of that conversation.

[sundancekid]

Bottom line is ideology is not in line with reality.

We all love the idea of 'education for all' and 'free immigration' etc...but at the end of the day what happens?

Human nature kicks in and all those idealistic views get thrown out the window.

Absolutely nothing to do with ideology of course. Or idealism for that matter. We've survived thus far because we are in fact biologically different, and because emphasizing and accepting different traits complement us. The worst thing to do is for any ideology to somehow claim absolute victory. That's how species die...

[sundancekid]

And the funny thing is that every time someone have screamed revolution, things have gone tits up 555

What... you mean the French Revolution, or the American revolution?

Sure, we do also need the input from the far-far-away right that you represent... but only as a corrective measure. Same as the far left. Yes, I do understand that I'm going way beyond the scope of this thread 555, but still important to keep in mind. In my view, the ideology that Geir represents probably amounts to between 5 - 15% of any given society or culture. Look at any democracy around the world today, and I believe that is fairly accurate. Probably 70% + on this very forum, but that is a different matter 555. Sorry Geir, the masses will never somehow "wake up" to your overly simplistic view of the world.

[Waharoa]

Yes, thankfully we will always need the dreamers... as they inspire and produce a better future while stopping us standing still...
It's how to tap into these "thinkers" properly without us having a wasted resource of theorists that never see their ideas put into action... or at the very least considered...

[sundancekid]

The short answer is of course you can't. Mark Zuckerberg was a failed psychology major, and Steve Jobs majored in calligraphy, which is probably why we still have Apple fanboys 555. I am the biggest critic today of both the Facebook and Apple business model, but no doubt they were visionaries. Just not exactly how the early pioneers envisioned it in the 60s.

I've previously linked to the book The Entrepreneurial State, which details how all the basic functions of our smart phone was originally funded by a state entity. Be it the internet, GPS, the touch screen... even the original Google search algorithm. So a state or country really has to cast a very wide net as to which technologies will emerge successful in the future. It took several decades from the inception of the internet before venture capitalists actually made any money. My concern today is that we're actually forgetting all that history. Slashing funding for research and development --- as well as the input from arts and humanities --- will only make us poorer. The main reason we even have the internet today is because of tax payer funding in the 1960s, and we really do need to pay that forward...

[Thin White Duke]

Yes, thankfully we will always need the dreamers... as they inspire and produce a better future while stopping us standing still...
It's how to tap into these "thinkers" properly without us having a wasted resource of theorists that never see their ideas put into action... or at the very least considered...

Agree above

[sundancekid]

Question then becomes... how do you somehow pick up the dreamers from the true visionaries? I've met enough technocrats in my life lacking any pragmatism, or creativity or even critical thinking. I've managed outsourced projects from Belarus, or the Ukraine, or India... but technical knowledge alone will never compensate for the lack of knowledge or understanding of other disciplines. I truly believe we in the west has an advantage because we have not forced people into specialized or robotic thinking. That's were we're heading though.

True story, the only Belarus programmer that I've really connected to was found hanging from a tree after hacking Russian govt. sites on his own time.

[Thin White Duke]

As much as it pains me I would suggest you guys read current news about what is really going down


Yeah Joseph and his amazing dreamcoat to follow.

[sundancekid]

Sorry if I hijacked the thread for a moment. I tend to do that unfortunately...

But is the story about Boris may be considering a mutiny? The UK election has actually become more interesting for a number of reasons.

[Thin White Duke]

Surely after this disaster with Theresa May.....
Boris is the next PM?

[stupscott]

He has denied it publicly, but then this is the Conservatives, so next week he could say the complete opposite going by their recent GE campaign.
I can't see anyone wanting the top job while they're connected to the DUP, they'll probably leave it to May until after the brexit negotiations to hammer home the final nail in her own coffin.

[Waharoa]

I guess Boris might at least take some of the heat off Trump...