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Thread: Che Guevara and Castro

  1. #1
    Senior Member geir's Avatar
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    Che Guevara and Castro

    OK boys (I think it's only males in here), what is your thoughts about the people mentioned above?
    Sorry, it may be a trap considering my political views.....
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    They did good things and they did bad things.

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    Senior Member geir's Avatar
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    More good than bad??
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    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    Not sure exactly what you're aiming at here Geir. First off, I don't believe Guevara fundamentally believed in authoritarianism. As we discussed in the other thread, you cannot just look at the world on a left-right axis. But also in terms of authoritarianism and libertarianism. He saw the US install far-right dictators in Central and South-America, and fought against that. And certainly, the far-right Batista regime in Cuba wasn't particularly benign either.

    Guevara was a Marxist, which is probably one of the most misunderstood political and economic ideologies in recent times. Try to combine Marxism and capitalism... like FDR did... and you will get the most successful hybrid, bastard ideology ever known to human societies so far. It's rarely a question of either or. Pretty much the same model every western society is running on today.

    Difference with Castro? The implementation.
    Last edited by sundancekid; 22nd May 2017 at 01:08.

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    Senior Member geir's Avatar
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    You know you're at the edge to communism, and as I said before it never worked. It's a great idea, and IMO it lines up with the idea of fixed salaries for everyone because of automation...
    My ex-girlfriend from Cuba was almost as nationalistic as the Thais, but she saw the limits with Castro's system. The only thing that worked well was the education system......it was loads of well educated people, but no jobs.
    You could always blame it on sanctions, but I don't think that's the main reason why things didn't work out.
    We all know authoritarianism doesn't work, and people will never be happy with just serving their country. Communism/authoritarianism makes it a goal for people to work like ants with no advantages for the strong or clever ones.
    Anyway it baffles me that intelligent people is still chairing for Che Guevara and Castro today. I know they are not exactly promoting the same things, but they are both far away from the freedom fighters they are upraised to be in some peoples eyes.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    Again Geir, I'm not sure exactly what you're aiming at, or that you even understand what you're attempting to argue. No one here wants to bring back authoritarian Communism. As a matter of fact, equating the left today with Communism would be as idiotic and a-historical as equating the right with Fascism. It's a non-starter.

    Marxists fought for equality, and there is not a single western country on earth that has not benefited from that particular ideology today. The fight for the rights of workers led to the creation of the weekend, holidays, sick-pay, health care, abolition of child labor etc. etc. The very things that define a modern, western society. How soon we tend to forget 555.

    On the other side you have pure, unadulterated capitalism (the bourgeoisie 555). I've challenged you again and again, but you never seem to be willing or able to defend your Ayn Rand support. It's really all part of the never ending waltz of history. A history in which Karl Marx played just a big role as Milton Friedman. And yes, Che Guevara as well. In that company Ayn Rand is considered more of a cruel joke...
    Last edited by sundancekid; 22nd May 2017 at 03:13.

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    Senior Member Joeguevara's Avatar
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    Ok...I'm going to bite because I am all for appropriate debate. And I do think one of the disappointing things with some people on here is the cemented views and the fact that no one try's to think about another view.

    So here goes....firstly Geir, as an opening poster you should give your view...only joking 555

    Secondly, I am only going to discuss Che Guevara.

    Thirdly, any argument I make is going to be based on the fact that all his actions were based on the fact that he was involved in a war.

    That being said, anyone who disagrees with any actions of che, can they point to a credible source thats states that Guevara executed an innocent "yes I am quoting Anderson, but I have never seen it disproven".

    He was a visionary who saw through the IMF. He treated sick people as a doctor including people who tried to murder and attempt to torture him. Was against racism and renounced the KKK. Even when the US establishment were propped up by them.

    Yes, history might show he made wrong choices but as an idol, I have not seen better. His family are from Ireland which makes him more of an idol. His full name being Ernesto, che guevara, lynch.

    Going back to my original point, if you are going to disrepute someone in an opening post, tell us why!

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    It is incomprehensible to me how anyone can show anything but total disgust for Che and his cohorts.
    But as my wife keeps telling me, but I don't do drugs.

    Guevara's bloody deeds have been well documented and some can be excused on "the heat of battle" but many were just executions of peasants who had the misfortune to follow those who were feeding them. He executed enemies and co-revolutionaries who disagreed with him.

    The Cuban Missile Crisis was set up by Guevara not Castro, and luckily Kruschev saw the stupidity of letting the megalomaniac have his way.
    "Guevara told a British communist daily: “If the rockets had remained, we would have used them all and directed them against the very heart of the United States, including New York, in our defense against aggression.” And a couple of years later, at the United Nations, he was true to form: “As Marxists we have maintained that peaceful coexistence among nations does not include coexistence between exploiters and the exploited.”

    Guevara took part in negotiations with Anastas Mikoyan, the Soviet deputy prime minister, who visited Cuba. He was entrusted with the mission of furthering Soviet-Cuban negotiations during a visit to Moscow in late 1960. (It was part of a long trip in which Kim Il Sung’s North Korea was the country that impressed him “the most.”) Guevara’s second trip to Russia, in August 1962, was even more significant, because it sealed the deal to turn Cuba into a Soviet nuclear beachhead. He met Khrushchev in Yalta to finalize details on an operation that had already begun and involved the introduction of forty-two Soviet missiles, half of which were armed with nuclear warheads, as well as launchers and some forty-two thousand soldiers. After pressing his Soviet allies on the danger that the United States might find out what was happening, Guevara obtained assurances that the Soviet navy would intervene—in other words, that Moscow was ready to go to war.


    The Killing Machine
    Che Guevara, from Communist Firebrand to Capitalist Brand By Alvaro Vargas Llosa Mon. July 11, 2005"
    Last edited by TLandHim; 22nd May 2017 at 10:00.

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    Marxist ideology in all its forms has proven impractical in the face of rampant capitalism.
    Guevara the human and Guevara the Marxist idealogue were likely two very different people.
    Castro was more prepared, more patient and luckier in all respects. One of idealisms true survivors, emulated by the likes of the late Hugo Chavez, Maduro et al today.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Joeguevara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLandHim View Post
    It is incomprehensible to me how anyone can show anything but total disgust for Che and his cohorts.
    But as my wife keeps telling me, but I don't do drugs.

    Guevara's bloody deeds have been well documented and some can be excused on "the heat of battle" but many were just executions of peasants who had the misfortune to follow those who were feeding them. He executed enemies and co-revolutionaries who disagreed with him.

    The Cuban Missile Crisis was set up by Guevara not Castro, and luckily Kruschev saw the stupidity of letting the megalomaniac have his way.
    "Guevara told a British communist daily: “If the rockets had remained, we would have used them all and directed them against the very heart of the United States, including New York, in our defense against aggression.” And a couple of years later, at the United Nations, he was true to form: “As Marxists we have maintained that peaceful coexistence among nations does not include coexistence between exploiters and the exploited.”

    Guevara took part in negotiations with Anastas Mikoyan, the Soviet deputy prime minister, who visited Cuba. He was entrusted with the mission of furthering Soviet-Cuban negotiations during a visit to Moscow in late 1960. (It was part of a long trip in which Kim Il Sung’s North Korea was the country that impressed him “the most.”) Guevara’s second trip to Russia, in August 1962, was even more significant, because it sealed the deal to turn Cuba into a Soviet nuclear beachhead. He met Khrushchev in Yalta to finalize details on an operation that had already begun and involved the introduction of forty-two Soviet missiles, half of which were armed with nuclear warheads, as well as launchers and some forty-two thousand soldiers. After pressing his Soviet allies on the danger that the United States might find out what was happening, Guevara obtained assurances that the Soviet navy would intervene—in other words, that Moscow was ready to go to war.


    The Killing Machine
    Che Guevara, from Communist Firebrand to Capitalist Brand By Alvaro Vargas Llosa Mon. July 11, 2005"
    Another moronic post from Wikipedia.....you do know that there are Wickipedia posts that say the world is flat....how about you dig deep into your head and try and construct an argument that is not copy and pasted from the Internet. At least I admitted faults and mistakes in what he did. You sound like a 10 year old who copied their homework to please teacher and ended up as a civil servant because that was what the good ole US told me to do! ������������������

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeguevara View Post
    Another moronic post from Wikipedia.....you do know that there are Wickipedia posts that say the world is flat....how about you dig deep into your head and try and construct an argument that is not copy and pasted from the Internet. At least I admitted faults and mistakes in what he did. You sound like a 10 year old who copied their homework to please teacher and ended up as a civil servant because that was what the good ole US told me to do! ������������������
    Well haven't you got your tits in tangle

    1, the post wasn't from Wikipedia but a random site called "the Independent Institute". No need to apologise.
    2, personal abuse doesn't provide other people with any better information on the subject and generally shows the writer has no cognitive arguments.
    3, While in the 6th form I got picked up by the education inspectors for only having 2 pages of work in my books for 10 months of high school and had to provide an adequate years work before they would let me sit University Entrance. I never did school homework.
    4, A civil servant? no, a civil servants nightmare more like it.
    5, Your reference to good ole US means what?
    6, I do apologise for not having access to my extensive load of books on many subjects, including Guevara and Castro which I took a particular interest in both before and after I visited Cuba in 2004. They are packed up while we have been travelling for the last 4 years.

    Now I've made enough allowances for you being Irish
    tell us why Guevara is such a hero, what did he achieve that was good?

  12. #12
    Senior Member geir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeguevara View Post
    Ok...I'm going to bite because I am all for appropriate debate. And I do think one of the disappointing things with some people on here is the cemented views and the fact that no one try's to think about another view.

    So here goes....firstly Geir, as an opening poster you should give your view...only joking 555

    Secondly, I am only going to discuss Che Guevara.

    Thirdly, any argument I make is going to be based on the fact that all his actions were based on the fact that he was involved in a war.

    That being said, anyone who disagrees with any actions of che, can they point to a credible source thats states that Guevara executed an innocent "yes I am quoting Anderson, but I have never seen it disproven".

    He was a visionary who saw through the IMF. He treated sick people as a doctor including people who tried to murder and attempt to torture him. Was against racism and renounced the KKK. Even when the US establishment were propped up by them.

    Yes, history might show he made wrong choices but as an idol, I have not seen better. His family are from Ireland which makes him more of an idol. His full name being Ernesto, che guevara, lynch.

    Going back to my original point, if you are going to disrepute someone in an opening post, tell us why!
    Not really sure why I posted it, was very drunk last night. I think I wanted to see how left wings some people on here are. It's plenty of tourists on my little island that even look at Castro as a hero. It's people that have absolutely no connection with Cuba, but have this idea that Castro was cool. My ex-girlfriend grew up in the old city of Havana, and have of cause a totally different picture of him and his army/police force. They all lived in fear and could be arrested if they were seen hand in hand with a foreigner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geir View Post
    Not really sure why I posted it, was very drunk last night. I think I wanted to see how left wings some people on here are. It's plenty of tourists on my little island that even look at Castro as a hero. It's people that have absolutely no connection with Cuba, but have this idea that Castro was cool. My ex-girlfriend grew up in the old city of Havana, and have of cause a totally different picture of him and his army/police force. They all lived in fear and could be arrested if they were seen hand in hand with a foreigner.
    Used to be just as ignorant until we went to Cuba and saw in our every interaction with Cuban's they were looking to see who was watching.
    Castro used East Germany's Staci and Erich Honecker to organise his police force. When we were in the old Staci prison in Berlin, they told us the Gestapo had 1 person in every 238 as an agent and the Staci claimed I person in 6 was on their files is an informer. Cuba was horrifying to me, the reality completely changed my attitude.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Joeguevara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLandHim View Post
    Well haven't you got your tits in tangle

    1, the post wasn't from Wikipedia but a random site called "the Independent Institute". No need to apologise.
    2, personal abuse doesn't provide other people with any better information on the subject and generally shows the writer has no cognitive arguments.
    3, While in the 6th form I got picked up by the education inspectors for only having 2 pages of work in my books for 10 months of high school and had to provide an adequate years work before they would let me sit University Entrance. I never did school homework.
    4, A civil servant? no, a civil servants nightmare more like it.
    5, Your reference to good ole US means what?
    6, I do apologise for not having access to my extensive load of books on many subjects, including Guevara and Castro which I took a particular interest in both before and after I visited Cuba in 2004. They are packed up while we have been travelling for the last 4 years.

    Now I've made enough allowances for you being Irish
    tell us why Guevara is such a hero, what did he achieve that was good?
    You annoyed me because of your brainwashed posts in the other thread....I really couldn't care less about educating someone who has no wish to have a debate. Tell you what, have a read of your extensive books on Cuba that you claim to have such an interest in. If after that you see only negatives then give a shout and I will press the ignore button. I will not engage in any more discussions of anyone who disregards the deaths of innocent victims...see other thread! Adios.....hasta la Victoria Siempre!
    Last edited by Joeguevara; 22nd May 2017 at 11:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeguevara View Post
    You annoyed me because of your brainwashed posts in the other thread....I really couldn't care less about educating someone who has no wish to have a debate. Tell you what, have a read of your extensive books on Cuba that you claim to have such an interest in. If after that you see only negatives then give a shout and I will press the ignore button. I will not engage in any more discussions of anyone who disregards the deaths of innocent victims...see other thread! Adios.....hasta la Victoria Siempre!
    I presume some of the innocent deaths you are talking about are at La Cabana Prison when Guevara was in charge, appalling wasn't it?
    Even you couldn't find one good achievement of Guevara.

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    Senior Member Petter's Avatar
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    And the myth lives,today mostley people dont digg deep into this i will save the world heroes from the past.
    what we always see is the metods used Are just the same as used by their enemies or even worse justified by helping poor people,the same people they very soon forgot when smelling the power and own ego IMO
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    Senior Member marc26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geir View Post
    Not really sure why I posted it, was very drunk last night. I think I wanted to see how left wings some people on here are. It's plenty of tourists on my little island that even look at Castro as a hero. It's people that have absolutely no connection with Cuba, but have this idea that Castro was cool. My ex-girlfriend grew up in the old city of Havana, and have of cause a totally different picture of him and his army/police force. They all lived in fear and could be arrested if they were seen hand in hand with a foreigner.
    You really should look at porn more when you are drunk 555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joeguevara View Post
    And I do think one of the disappointing things with some people on here is the cemented views and the fact that no one try's to think about another view.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joeguevara View Post
    Yes, history might show he made wrong choices but as an idol, I have not seen better. His family are from Ireland which makes him more of an idol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joeguevara View Post
    If after that you see only negatives then give a shout and I will press the ignore button. I will not engage in any more discussions of anyone who disregards the deaths of innocent victims...see other thread! Adios.....hasta la Victoria Siempre!
    #TheOnion

    ...

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    Sssshhhhh!!

    Joe's looking hard for a redeeming feature of Chez Guevara.
    He could be some time.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Joeguevara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TLandHim View Post
    Sssshhhhh!!

    Joe's looking hard for a redeeming feature of Chez Guevara.
    He could be some time.
    You really don't think he has any redeeming feature...honestly?

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