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Thread: Paperless Future

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    Paperless Future


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    All of my working life we have apparently been heading towards a paperless future. Not too close yet I think.

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    Senior Member soupdragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve@thaib View Post
    All of my working life we have apparently been heading towards a paperless future. Not too close yet I think.
    Didn't you just publish your book in paperless format ? Baby steps

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    Quote Originally Posted by soupdragon View Post
    Didn't you just publish your book in paperless format ? Baby steps
    Sure did, but I'm also sat in my office at home surrounded by paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve@thaib View Post
    Sure did, but I'm also sat in my office at home surrounded by paper
    A few months back, they stopped supplying paper to our office claiming we didn't need it... The Directors printer ran out of paper first so that directive was reversed in short order.

    I generally try to avoid printing but some stupid regulations where I work mean I have to print 3-4 forms a week minimum.

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    We print a lot. Columns of figures are easier to check on paper ( can't put a tick mark on a screen ), a lot of clients need hard copy reports and invoices. And, of course, I'm old fashioned enough to still like the feel of notes in my wallet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve@thaib View Post
    We print a lot. Columns of figures are easier to check on paper ( can't put a tick mark on a screen ), a lot of clients need hard copy reports and invoices.
    Almost all office programs have some from of annotation in them these days. Although it is easier to read and annotate on paper, when you're cross referencing multiple sheets or documents, it ends up being easier to annotate the electronic copy.

    In my profession I frequently get documents that have multiple sheets or reference external documents... Every now and then one of the idiots in management manages to reference it using the full UNC path (but I'm starting to rant so I digress).

    That being said, I do put most of my print outs that dont need to be kept into the recycling bin. Eventually it comes back to the printer as paper... Circle of life and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve@thaib View Post
    And, of course, I'm old fashioned enough to still like the feel of notes in my wallet
    Cash is king

    I love the discounts I get by using it. I can buy things for $$$ less than the credit addled morons who talk about how many "points" they've earned by putting everything on the card, I think it feels better to put money back into my pocket rather than some imaginary points system that may change at any time.

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    Senior Member marc26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjwx View Post
    Cash is king

    I love the discounts I get by using it. I can buy things for $$$ less than the credit addled morons who talk about how many "points" they've earned by putting everything on the card, I think it feels better to put money back into my pocket rather than some imaginary points system that may change at any time.
    they charge more in Australia for CC transactions? same as in Asia?
    in North America, the retailer absorbs that fee

    some restaurants give a 10% discount if paying cash

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    Quote Originally Posted by marc26 View Post
    they charge more in Australia for CC transactions? same as in Asia?
    in North America, the retailer absorbs that fee
    Who does the retailer pass it on to? You, in the form of higher prices.

    Go into any big box retailer in Australia, look at something like a TV... Then tell the salesman you're paying cash and watch the ticket price drop. Whenever you buy anything large over here, TV, Car, Computers, Fridges and whitegoods, the first question you'll be asked is "how are you paying". If you deflect the question, they'll assume its the most expensive method (credit).

    Credit transactions attract a 1-4% "Merchant Service Fee [MSF]" in Australia. I'd be very surprised if they didn't do the same in the US/Canada. It costs extra for credit so they have to advertise assuming they have to pay the MSF, "Pay less, pay cash" is an old Aussie proverb that remains true today.

    Personally I think it should be illegal for the merchant to adsorb this cost, rather add it on as a surcharge at the time of purchase... But banks would hate this as people will see how much extra those fees are adding onto what they buy. So I'll put this little desire into the same box as a night with Jessica Alba.

    Quote Originally Posted by marc26 View Post
    some restaurants give a 10% discount if paying cash
    In Australia, your advertised price is your final price and the price it must be sold at regardless of payment method. A years back, Apple was forced to sell several thousand brand new Ipads at A$50 because of a typo on their website due to this law.

    Some places do charge EFTPOS surcharges rather than building it into their price but the credit addled morons have complained to the ACCC to the point where this is difficult. So we're seeing more "Sorry, no EFTPOS" signs as a result (now the credit addled morons are complaining that nowhere accepts cards).

    But to answer your next question, I do have a CC but prefer to use cash (or debit transactions) as this nets me a lower price. $100 in my pocket is better than 5000 points that have an expiry date and no transfer into real world money. I have the CC for the few times cash is impractical (I.E. hotel, car hire).

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    Senior Member tnlawyer's Avatar
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    I do some transactional work for a company that builds/operates fuel centers. Often the fees paid to the credit card companies are more than what the company pays in employee costs. It's fucking insane.

    The credit card companies got people accustomed to paying with a card (even if it's a check card where the money comes directly out of your account) and now they keep raising the fee charged to retailers. Credit card companies have retailers by the short and curlies and they know it. What are retailers supposed to do...stop accepting the cards and lose business because they're now less convenient?

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    Senior Member Stillearly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjwx View Post

    I love the discounts I get by using it. I can buy things for $$$ less than the credit addled morons who talk about how many "points" they've earned by putting everything on the card, I think it feels better to put money back into my pocket rather than some imaginary points system that may change at any time.
    I use my credit cards wherever I can , ask for and recieve discounts if I think it's appropriate ... Even bought my car on my BA Amex card to get the points
    'If it floats, flies or fcuks , it's cheaper to rent"

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    Senior Member marc26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnlawyer View Post
    I do some transactional work for a company that builds/operates fuel centers. Often the fees paid to the credit card companies are more than what the company pays in employee costs. It's fucking insane.

    The credit card companies got people accustomed to paying with a card (even if it's a check card where the money comes directly out of your account) and now they keep raising the fee charged to retailers. Credit card companies have retailers by the short and curlies and they know it. What are retailers supposed to do...stop accepting the cards and lose business because they're now less convenient?
    but now it seems the debit cards are the ones that are charging crazy fees
    i see a lot of stores only accepting cash or credit card

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillearly View Post
    I use my credit cards wherever I can , ask for and recieve discounts if I think it's appropriate ... Even bought my car on my BA Amex card to get the points
    As I said, I prefer cash in pocket to imaginary points.

    With credit cards, you'll never receive the full discount. Ever. Simply because it costs them more to accept it.

    With cars, the first question you get asked is how are you paying for it. This is the biggest factor a dealer has in how far he'll be pushed. If you say credit or avoid the question, he'll assume the most expensive scenario. I bought my last car privately, a 2006 Honda Integra Type S wouldn't have left a dealer for less than A$20,000, I bought mine for A$16,000 privately. Paid with a bank cheque, she would never have accepted a CC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tnlawyer View Post
    I do some transactional work for a company that builds/operates fuel centers. Often the fees paid to the credit card companies are more than what the company pays in employee costs. It's fucking insane.

    The credit card companies got people accustomed to paying with a card (even if it's a check card where the money comes directly out of your account) and now they keep raising the fee charged to retailers. Credit card companies have retailers by the short and curlies and they know it. What are retailers supposed to do...stop accepting the cards and lose business because they're now less convenient?
    This.

    Its disgusting. Its really the same deal with drug pushers, get the users addicted and then jack up the price.

    I used to sell and install EFTPOS systems. Debit transactions were nominal, $0.20-0.50 per transaction. It's when you hit the credit button that prices soared.

    A few months ago, the credit addicted complained to the ACCC (Australia's consumer watchdog) about credit card surcharges. The ACCC aquessed and said that businesses can not charge more than it costs them for the transaction. The net result is small businesses who cant afford the cost of the annual and monthly fees (yes, they get charged for both) have been hanging up the "Sorry no EFTPOS" signs whilst big businesses like QANTAS and Virgin airlines who charge $30 odd to pay by CC haven't been affected at all.

    Now the credit card addicted are complaining that their cards are not being accepted... Well they made their beds.

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    Senior Member marc26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjwx View Post
    As I said, I prefer cash in pocket to imaginary points.

    With credit cards, you'll never receive the full discount. Ever. Simply because it costs them more to accept it.

    .
    retailers in the US/Canada would never give a cash discount

    but like i said, some small restaurants will


    one thing that is good about cash is you can kind of keep track what you are spending
    i use my CC for 90% of purchases and sometimes i look at my statement and wonder where the fcuk the money went

  16. #16
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    Speaking of cash vs. credit, thought this was an interesting account about Sweden:

    Bills and coins represent only 3 percent of Sweden's economy, compared to an average of 9 percent in the eurozone and 7 percent in the U.S., according to the Bank for International Settlements, an umbrella organization for the world's central banks.
    Sweden moving towards cashless economy - CBS News

    I use exclusively cash in my every day transactions though. Just easier to manage the weekly budget that way. And putting the odd change into a jar over a couple of years recently bought me a new flat screen.

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    Senior Member tnlawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marc26 View Post
    retailers in the US/Canada would never give a cash discount

    but like i said, some small restaurants will


    one thing that is good about cash is you can kind of keep track what you are spending
    i use my CC for 90% of purchases and sometimes i look at my statement and wonder where the fcuk the money went
    I think charging a premium for CC transactions (which is what a cash discount essentially is) was not allowed until a year or so ago. A court settlement now allows retailers to charge more for CC transactions, but most big retailers have been hesitant to do so. Nobody wants to be the first one, but I suspect it would be like airlines charging fees for checked bags...once one or two of the big ones start doing it, many others will fall in line. A lot of retailers operate on razor thin margins, and getting whacked for 3% on each transaction can really hurt.

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    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    Probably different from country to country, but is this (from Sweden) the current trend?

    But there are pockets of resistance. Hanna Celik, whose family owns a newspaper kiosk in a Stockholm shopping mall, says the digital economy is all about banks seeking bigger earnings.

    Celik says he gets charged about 5 Swedish kronor ($0.80) for every credit card transaction, and a law passed by the Swedish Parliament prevents him from passing on that charge to consumers.

    "That stinks," he says. "For them (the banks), this is a very good way to earn a lot of money, that's what it's all about. They make huge profits."

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    Senior Member tnlawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    Probably different from country to country, but this (from Sweden) appears to be the trend?
    Yep law was similar in the US prior to the settlement I mentioned. Retailers were fed up and banded together to sue the CC companies. I think the CC companies had to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $6 billion and retailers received the right to pass the fees (but not a penny more) along to customers if they choose to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marc26 View Post
    one thing that is good about cash is you can kind of keep track what you are spending
    i use my CC for 90% of purchases and sometimes i look at my statement and wonder where the fcuk the money went
    Yep, one thing cash does is forces people to be more frugal. Something about money being tangible and credit being intangible (in simple terms, it's easy to put things on the card and hard to part with physical cash). In Oz, paying cash means paying less 9 times out of 10 at big box retailers, ticket price is assuming you're paying via the most expensive method and 10% commission for the salesdrone. Even if you use a debit card (choose Savings or Cheque at the EFTPOS machine). For my old Honda Civic, I paid $3800 in cash... A far cry from the ticket price of $6500 on the windscreen and the $5800 the dealer started at.

    I'm with Shitibank, erm, Citibank and it takes 3 days for any transaction to show up on my internet banking. The money is gone from my available balence but not from my deposit balance. This really annoys me as I cant see where the money has gone for several days.

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