Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 28
Like Tree16Likes

Thread: Shades of grey ?

  1. #1
    Senior Member faultytowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,496

    Shades of grey ?

    A look back at some events of the past year , most of which I took an opposite view to the general consensus but have either side proved their case ?

    Syria - Chemical weapons attacks must have been carried out by government forces because "intelligence sources" know that the 'rebels' don't have/can't get chemical weapons. Official inspections/reports "suggested" it was government forces but failed to prove it ! Also , the same "intelligence sources" somehow failed to notice that the 'rebels' the West and our allies were supporting with weapons and funding somehow grew from a ragtag bunch into an army that swept through large swathes of 2 countries.

    Anyone now think that there is even a possibility that these murderous bastards could have possibly got a hold of chemical weapons and used them on innocent civilians ?

    Middle East Deja-Vu - Pull out Western troops and Afghanistan/Iraq will become democracies. Didn't quite work out , so send in planes to bomb the shit out of the bad guys and send in 'advisers' to train the indigenous forces how to fight properly.

    Hang on a minutes , haven't we been doing that for years ?

    MH 370 - Still not one piece of physical evidence about what happened to this plane or where it ended up. Nothing showing up on sonar scans , no debris found in the numerous search areas or washed up on any shoreline. Haven't seen any proof/reasoning about who/why events happened , lots of speculation about the pilot but not one "smoking gun" that a jury would convict on .

    MH17 - The whole Ukraine conflict has been one of lies and propaganda by both sides , numerous claims have been rebutted and shown to be false but who actually shot down MH17 ?
    Initially the claim was that a BUK missile system was transported from Russia , complete with crew , shot down the plane and then returned over the border. The "evidence" to back up this claim was that there were no Ukrainian BUK systems in the region (this has been proven false) , that the rebels needed Russian support to fire the missile ( yet Ukraine had 50 BUK systems so must have had experienced crews) , and finally ........ there was photographic/satellite evidence of the exact time/place the missile was fired but for some reason this "evidence" has never been seen by the public .

    Ebola - Not something to take lightly but also not the end of the world event some were predicting. This outbreak started 1 year ago and approximately 7500 people have died , so were they initial reports scaremongering ? Yes , there was a 'potential' for a massive loss of life but that same 'potential' could be applied to numerous other diseases/natural disasters. Was it heartless and uncaring to compare a few thousand deaths from ebola with the 10's/100's of thousands who die each year from other illnesses that weren't hitting the headlines ?


    Shades of Grey ????
    The above are just some examples where I questioned the "facts" that were being reported by the mainstream media and being accepted as truth by large sections of the population. My posts got discussions going and for the most part were reasonably polite with some banter or good natured piss-taking.

    Over the past couple of months I have found the tone of the forum has changed and where before there was room for the 'grey areas' it has now become a case of "you are either with us or against us".

    Whether it is taxis , junta , Obama , climate change or even the police there is no room for "the middle ground" or independent opinion. If you don't agree with every single part of a discussion/ argument then you must be against all the views expressed. There is also the 'inappropriate/irrelevant' stance when comparisons are introduced that don't fit the accepted agenda.

    You can't compare the coup in Thailand with what is happening in the Middle East but it is perfectly acceptable to mention other 'bad guys' like North Korea and Nazi Germany.

    I gave up responding to some of the news/media reports that appear , remember when the 'junta' were murdering all the illegal workers or killing an innocent kid ? Complete bullshit but when challenged it turns out the stories were based on rumour , gossip and propaganda. Now it is 'reports' of possible statements and headline grabbing (think The Sun/Daily Mail) photos supposedly showing how repressive the junta are ...... twisting an ear and throwing a banana ! Hitler and Saddam could have learned lot from these guys. This must be one of the most bloodless coups in recent history .

    You can point out that the "junta" are not keeping the promises they made but if someone in another thread mentions promises made by Obama before he was elected they are told that is irrelevant because that is what politicians do !.

    The 'shades of grey' was definitely missing when it came to race/colour , disagree with or point out faults/flaws and you are racist . Take an 'outsiders' viewpoint and somehow you don't have the brains or common sense to make a judgement based on the factual evidence before you.

    White cops are bad/racist/murderers ..... young black guys are innocent victims !

    Three cases have hit the headlines recently , each one slightly different but on on another level there are
    numerous similarities.

    First there was the innocent young college kid who was "murdered" by a cop. When the facts came out (not the opinions of local groups) it turns out that this very large thug had just intimidated /threatened/robbed a local store and 'possibly' resisted arrest and put a police officer in fear of his life.

    Second case another very large guy is caught breaking the law (minor matter) he is told he is being arrested but resists, there is no way a single cop could tackle/subdue this guy due to his size/strength. The police "murdered" him because he repeatedly shouted out that he could not breathe (medical fact - if you can shout .......you can breathe !) , not much mention in news reports about his medical history (obesity/cardiac problems).

    Third case was when a cop approached a couple of guys after a report of theft and one of the guys pulls a gun and points it directly at the cop , the cop reacts/responds and shoots the guy. Crowds gather , violent protest , another "innocent" black guy gunned down by murderous cops.

    Now , I personally don't give a shit if the guys shot/killed were black , white , brown or polka dot , to me all 3 were breaking the law and all 3 refused to obey the instructions of a law enforcement officer. But you can't point that out because then the 'victims' would be seen as the lawbreakers they really were.

    Am I trying to justify the actions of the police ? No , I feel that the way the American police/military react to a lot of situations is way over the top (the same is also happening on a more frequent basis in the U.K). But yet again there seems to be no "middle ground" if you support the police you are racist and if you support the other side you are just as biased by portraying the 'victims' as complete innocents and ignoring their responsibility for inflaming/causing the situation.


    OK , ranted on enough , this forum started up so that friends could keep in touch but I now feel it is becoming very divisive and unless the "discussion" element returns people will drift away rather than continually get involved in the "with us or against us " arguments.

    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all !
    briofoz likes this.

  2. #2
    Senior Member NeedHoliday's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    1,105
    Not sure I agree with some of your points (some of your wording comes across as quite bias when I think you're trying to sound neutral) but the general point that a lot of the time people can't accept there is a even a middle ground to start with is pretty accurate I think

  3. #3
    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,803
    Dude, you're using quotation marks to suggest that the nazis weren't actually bad guys?! Pleaseeeee tell me you're not or you really have gone bonkers.




  4. #4
    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,803
    And actually I think its a good thing we have articulate people willing to take the time to express their alternate views on lots of topics. How crap would it be if SDK wasn't around to counterbalance Lil's hyper inflationary end of the world scenarios in the finance threads or Soupie taking the time to go up against Greatdane in the coup thread. Would be boring as hell and people who don't have quite the time or the ability to dig deep into articles etc would miss out. I learned a lot from these threads. We could probably do without the taxi thread tho
    Last edited by kris-one; 28th December 2014 at 02:21.
    Waharoa likes this.




  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    930
    Several really good points made by Faultytowers
    Much of the news reported is only the easy stories and facts are often sublimated in favour of a headline
    It is best to sit back and ask where is the logic in the story
    and cynical me always asks where is the money?

    I think Faultytowers has encapsulated the race issue well, don't agree with all but he's basically said it as it really is.
    Criminals are not bad because they are black, they are not shot because they are black, they are shot because they are criminals and break the law.

    It is interesting to see other people's take on issues
    and I often end up following up a little research on issues I haven't got the whole story on

    Thank you all for your views and opinions and I
    look forward to another year of thought provoking opinions

  6. #6
    Senior Member Waharoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,187
    I still think you got the Ebola one wrong. It was never about prevalence it was about the potential it could possibly cause. And you nor anyone else really knew the answer... the scaremongering was there to make people take it seriously...

    On the other points. Reasonable conclusions. Though not convinced about the choking person not actually choking... seeing as he died from it? Even if from cardiac arrest... the choking caused it... or did I miss something?

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    682
    I cant agree with all of your points Faulty, but you've hit the nail no the head with the way the mainstream media behaves.

    The mainstream media cares nothing for reporting the facts, rather they just want to grab eyeballs with outrageous headlines and they don't care if it's nothing but rumour, speculation and innuendo.

    The recent hostage situation in Sydney is a good example, the media (specifically the Murdoch media) printed, talked and syndicated so much bollocks before any of the facts were known. When the truth was revealed it was too late. The damage of the Daily Tele's "Special Edition" which was retrospectively found to have practically no facts was done.

    The truth in our media has taken a back seat attention grabbing headlines that are often no better than bold faced lies.

    The sadder fact is that so many take the words of the mainstream media as the gospel truth rather than sceptically analysing the information.
    TLandHim and faultytowers like this.
    This post is known by the state of California to potentially contain more than the maximum daily allowance of awesome.

  8. #8
    Senior Member faultytowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,496
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedHoliday View Post
    Not sure I agree with some of your points (some of your wording comes across as quite bias when I think you're trying to sound neutral) but the general point that a lot of the time people can't accept there is a even a middle ground to start with is pretty accurate I think
    Anything against the perceived norm is now classed as biased , a lot of the time I just questioned "facts" and showed how inaccurate/misleading they were. I wasn't deliberately taking the anti side just showing that the pro side were using falsehoods to 'prove' their case.
    TLandHim likes this.

  9. #9
    Senior Member faultytowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,496
    Quote Originally Posted by kris-one View Post
    Dude, you're using quotation marks to suggest that the nazis weren't actually bad guys?! Pleaseeeee tell me you're not or you really have gone bonkers.
    The 'bad guys' comment referred to the fact that certain countries/regimes are continually referenced to highlight points yet other equally repressive groups are ignored because they are financially/militarily our "allies" at this point in time.

  10. #10
    Senior Member faultytowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,496
    Quote Originally Posted by Waharoa View Post
    I still think you got the Ebola one wrong. It was never about prevalence it was about the potential it could possibly cause. And you nor anyone else really knew the answer... the scaremongering was there to make people take it seriously...

    On the other points. Reasonable conclusions. Though not convinced about the choking person not actually choking... seeing as he died from it? Even if from cardiac arrest... the choking caused it... or did I miss something?
    From an article on BBC:
    Outbreaks such as Ebola have an ability to spread fear around the world, often through the prism of sensationalist media reporting.

    So how does Ebola actually compare to previous outbreaks and other diseases? And while the world focuses on Ebola, are we guilty of ignoring much bigger killers?


    Even at the height of this epidemic, Ebola is far from a major killer in Africa.


    It takes HIV/Aids just two days to kill as many people as have died in the whole Ebola outbreak so far.
    BBC News - Ebola: How does it compare?

    As for choking , if someone is able to repeatedly shout out that they cannot breathe ...... they are breathing , air is passing from the lungs through the vocal cords.

    If (haven't seen any post-mortem results) the cause of death is confirmed as cardiac arrest then any contributing factors , weight/coronary disease/hypoxia would all have to be taken into consideration. To simply state that "the choking caused it" is to assign culpability without any factual evidence.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Waharoa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,187
    Well we'll agree to disagree on the Ebola issue. I still think you seem to be missing the point... you may as well quote death from car accidents as well, but we know the world won't be wiped out from car accidents, but with something "unpredictable" like Ebola, there is always the risk, no matter how small that it could be another black death scenario...

    And if that guy did die from cardiac arrest because of the stress of the choking hold on him... would the officer still not be culpable? Like the officer who was culpable when that bystander died from cardiac arrest after being hit by a baton in London last year?

    By the way Faulty I do appreciate you always offering alternative reasons for general attitudes... so keep up the good work... you don't have to be always right, to be making a valid point.

  12. #12
    Senior Member marc26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Vancouver BC
    Posts
    10,630
    Quote Originally Posted by faultytowers View Post
    Anything against the perceived norm is now classed as biased , a lot of the time I just questioned "facts" and showed how inaccurate/misleading they were. I wasn't deliberately taking the anti side just showing that the pro side were using falsehoods to 'prove' their case.
    No one has anything against your actual stances., when they fit the discussion.
    It is the fact you feel the need to interject them in every thread when they have no relevance that was simply annoying

    You are acting like some martyr who was shunned because of his views when that has never been the case. If one thing this board does well is debate
    It is the constant need to push them down our throats when they have no relevance in a thread
    kris-one likes this.

  13. #13
    Senior Member dontpanic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    1,823
    You are very correct on mainstream and media in general, it appears to me that a lot of sensationalist headlines are now driving traffic to websites instead of selling newspapers at the side of the road. I tend to stay away from a lot of the non-Asia/travel threads as although they are a welcome part of discussion my attitude is that we don't concentrate enough on the board members advantage of knowledge in this area and even in this area you're just going to have to accept that other people have different views on things. Whether you're a beer bar guy. beach guy, Phuket or Patts, if you're overpaying or being a cheap charlie there's always going to be someone to disagree with you. I don't agree that the board was setup purely for people to stay in touch but to keep the excellent sources of information in the same place. If there's one thing about the Thai way of life I like it's the up to you sentiment albeit with a western touch in that we actually make a decision every now and again.
    Dkdude likes this.

  14. #14
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,142
    Quote Originally Posted by faultytowers View Post
    Whether it is taxis , junta , Obama , climate change or even the police there is no room for "the middle ground" or independent opinion. If you don't agree with every single part of a discussion/ argument then you must be against all the views expressed. There is also the 'inappropriate/irrelevant' stance when comparisons are introduced that don't fit the accepted agenda.
    Still, objective facts do exist, right?

    Of course, in all the issues you mention there is room for a vast array of personal opinions, or “shades of grey” if you like. But only one set of empirical, verifiable facts. In these types of discussions, this old saying appears to hold true.

    “The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion.”

  15. #15
    Senior Member Snakebite911's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    นอร์เวย์
    Posts
    357


    Explanatory graph.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    mjwx and sundancekid like this.

  16. #16
    Senior Member faultytowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,496
    Quote Originally Posted by Waharoa View Post
    Well we'll agree to disagree on the Ebola issue. I still think you seem to be missing the point... you may as well quote death from car accidents as well, but we know the world won't be wiped out from car accidents, but with something "unpredictable" like Ebola, there is always the risk, no matter how small that it could be another black death scenario...
    When the Ebola outbreak first hit the mainstream media there were all the apocalyptic headlines and guesstimates of hundreds of thousands dying . I stated that I thought the outbreak was nowhere near as bad as it was being portrayed and that a lot of the statements/reports were scaremongering.

    You have said that " the scaremongering was there to make people take it seriously" , I would prefer to be told the truth , previous 'epidemics' (bird flu/SARS/Swine flu) have shown how inaccurate these guesstimates are and each time they get it so wrong the less people are likeley to believe them when a real pandemic occurs.

    Possible/potential are the sort of phrases insurance salesmen use , there is always a risk but while people were focusing on what could happen ......... thousands were/are dying every day from what is happening due to other treatable diseases.

    Hard fact : How many other lives could be saved with the money being used in this one outbreak ?

    Before a get accused of being a heartless bastard , doctors have to make life or death decisions every day based on economic principles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Waharoa View Post
    And if that guy did die from cardiac arrest because of the stress of the choking hold on him... would the officer still not be culpable? Like the officer who was culpable when that bystander died from cardiac arrest after being hit by a baton in London last year?

    By the way Faulty I do appreciate you always offering alternative reasons for general attitudes... so keep up the good work... you don't have to be always right, to be making a valid point.
    That would be for a court of law to decide , not the court of public opinion/media.

    Where does culpability start ?

    If the guy hadn't been breaking the law (not first offence) then the police wouldn't have tried to arrest him.

    If the guy hadn't subsequently refused to be handcuffed and resisted arrest the police wouldn't have had to subdue him.

    Or is it OK for someone to break the law and resist arrest , if so , why bother having police patrolling the streets ?

  17. #17
    Senior Member faultytowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,496
    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    Still, objective facts do exist, right?

    Of course, in all the issues you mention there is room for a vast array of personal opinions, or “shades of grey” if you like. But only one set of empirical, verifiable facts. In these types of discussions, this old saying appears to hold true.

    “The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion.”

    A lot of the "empirical , verifiable facts" turn out to be either misleading or wrong , just because one side states they are facts doesn't necessarily mean they actually are.

  18. #18
    Senior Member faultytowers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,496
    Quote Originally Posted by marc26 View Post
    No one has anything against your actual stances., when they fit the discussion.
    It is the fact you feel the need to interject them in every thread when they have no relevance that was simply annoying

    You are acting like some martyr who was shunned because of his views when that has never been the case. If one thing this board does well is debate
    It is the constant need to push them down our throats when they have no relevance in a thread
    Most of my posts are usually in response to some 'fact' that has been posted by others , I don't just interject them into threads . You may find them irrelevant and annoying , that is up to you , but the simple option is to ignore them.

    Definitely no martyrdom on my part , I just post what I want and accept any criticism without having to resort to abuse or name-calling.

  19. #19
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,142
    Quote Originally Posted by faultytowers View Post
    A lot of the "empirical , verifiable facts" turn out to be either misleading or wrong, just because one side states they are facts doesn't necessarily mean they actually are.
    Again, you seem to be a bit confused about the differences between opinions and facts. As if the latter is just as fluid as the former.

    You included Obama and climate change in the comment I quoted, so I guess at least some was directed at me. Not trying to pull specifics from those threads into this discussion, but actual verifiable facts do actually exist within the realm of those topics.

    To the point, can I personally verify that Napoleon was actually born in 1769? No. Can I personally verify that the earth is round? No. And can I personally verify that the Gang-of-Six negotiation took place prior to Obamacare? No. Etc. etc. Same with climate change. But these are still regarded as accepted facts.

    If you want to question any of those facts above though, you would need to present exceptionally convincing counter evidence. It really is not a case of both sides. And if you have examples of any of the stuff I’ve presented as facts that can be questioned in any way, I’d like to know about it as well.
    Last edited by sundancekid; 30th December 2014 at 01:08.

  20. #20
    Senior Member slampay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1,640
    Ah! It's a 'debate buffet' thread. 55
    A woman won The Nobel Peace Prize? Must have been a pretty good sandwich.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •