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Thread: Poverty

  1. #1
    Senior Member billpay's Avatar
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    Poverty

    Just saw this quote, and think it is right on:

    "You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
    You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
    You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
    You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
    You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
    You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
    You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."







    Abraham Lincoln
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  2. #2
    Super Moderator LivinLOS's Avatar
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    Good quote..

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    Well, some of the things are debatable as they depend on your definition of the words. Like "weakening the strong". Are they weakened by higher taxes?

    Besides: snopes.com: Abraham Lincoln on Prosperity

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    Senior Member billpay's Avatar
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    ^^Wow...as I shake my head.


    'Depends what the meaning of 'is' is'...??

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    Senior Member kris-one's Avatar
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    Who is destroying the rich?

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    Quote Originally Posted by billpay View Post
    ^^Wow...as I shake my head.


    'Depends what the meaning of 'is' is'...??
    Maybe I was typing too fast. What was it in my example that you don't understand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatdane View Post
    Well, some of the things are debatable as they depend on your definition of the words. Like "weakening the strong". Are they weakened by higher taxes?

    Besides: snopes.com: Abraham Lincoln on Prosperity
    Nope, in fact historically they've done better under higher taxes.

    It's an old and circular argument, the top depends on having the best base it can, but a good base can only be assembled by a good top.

    Realistically, a good boss realises he's only as good as the people he employs. A bad boss thinks he's better. Unfortunately the current MBA style of management has produced few of the former and legions of the latter and all are suffering because of it.

    So is the company strong because it has a good workforce or a good leadership? So weakening the strong could easily be demoralising and cutting down the lower ranks of the company in favour of the higher ranks.

    Quote Originally Posted by kris-one View Post
    Who is destroying the rich?
    Themselves.

    It's the whole "to big to fail" mentality.

    As I said about the MBA's, they're privatising the gains whilst externalising (socialising) the losses. The thing about externalising costs is, eventually externialities need to be paid for but current MBA philosophy is "never think beyond the next quarter". Hence a problem that is going to show up in 2,3 or 5 years time is not considered to be an issue.

  8. #8
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    The problem is not with someone being rich and others not. The problem is with extreme inequalities within a society.

    An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics.

    –Plutarch
    ancient Greek biographer (c. 46 – 120 CE)
    The causes which destroyed the ancient republics were numerous; but in Rome, one principal cause was the vast inequality of fortunes.

    –Noah WebsterAmerican editor and writer (1758-1843)
    The greatest country, the richest country, is not that which has the most capitalists, monopolists, immense grabbings, vast fortunes, with its sad, sad soil of extreme, degrading, damning poverty, but the land in which there are the most homesteads, freeholds — where wealth does not show such contrasts high and low, where all men have enough — a modest living— and no man is made possessor beyond the sane and beautiful necessities.”

    –Walt Whitman

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    Senior Member Dodger's Avatar
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    Heh guys last two posts way too deep, can we keep this on my level, does she have big tits???
    Custard should be a colour...cos I could then paint over the mess I've just made!!!

  10. #10
    Senior Member billpay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatdane View Post
    Maybe I was typing too fast. What was it in my example that you don't understand?
    Oh, I understood perfectly well...typing too fast?...5555 that's a good one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by billpay View Post
    Oh, I understood perfectly well
    Ah, so you were shaking your head because you were not able to answer if higher taxes is weakening the rich. By the way, I agree with mjwx about the taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by billpay View Post
    ...typing too fast?...5555 that's a good one.
    Yes, I saw it somewhere else and have been saving it for the right moment, 555

  12. #12
    Senior Member billpay's Avatar
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    Yeah, of course you are correct...how could it be any other way. By the way, what did that quote have to say about taxes....I missed that. I, myself, didn't read anything into the quotes....I just interpreted them literally...silly me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by billpay View Post
    Yeah, of course you are correct...how could it be any other way. By the way, what did that quote have to say about taxes....
    Nothing, that is why I asked you. Many conservatives equate higher taxes with weakening the rich, I was curious if you do too.

  14. #14
    Super Moderator LivinLOS's Avatar
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    No its more about collectivism and removing incentives..

    When work pays only marginally less than doing nothing (as I clearly saw it do in Holland) everyone would rather fiddle the social funds or worry about how many tax free miles they can log into expenses than do productive work and overtime.

  15. #15
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    So then, under which systems (and which countries) would you say are the best to live in following your preferred policies?

    And just to add, Norway arguably has one of the highest unemployment benefits anywhere. Yet, our unemployment level is currently hovering around 3%.
    Last edited by sundancekid; 3rd July 2013 at 22:08.

  16. #16
    Super Moderator LivinLOS's Avatar
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    Andorra ?? Monaco ?? Oh those are such shitholes !!

    Hong Kong is pretty simple tax code, setting up business is easy and cheap, tax structures low and easy to admin..

    Singapore would be better if it wasnt for the regulatroy burden, the tax code is pretty decent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sundancekid View Post
    So then, under which systems (and which countries) would you say are the best to live in following your preferred policies?

    And just to add, Norway arguably has one of the highest unemployment benefits anywhere. Yet, our unemployment level is currently hovering around 3%.
    What they dont say is that Norway has an enormous public sector. 30% of the work force is employed in the public sector. Thats double the average compared to OECD.
    Totally about 50% of the potential work force is either in public sector or on social benefits/disability pensions etc. I think theres a lot of unemployment hidden here.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member sundancekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorTom View Post
    What they dont say is that Norway has an enormous public sector. 30% of the work force is employed in the public sector. Thats double the average compared to OECD.
    Totally about 50% of the potential work force is either in public sector or on social benefits/disability pensions etc. I think theres a lot of unemployment hidden here.
    I don't doubt the Norwegian numbers for the public sector at all. OECD countries are quite a diversified bunch though. Then again, having a relatively large public sector with guaranteed and sufficient benefits to enjoy old age is not necessarily that bad, right? Both my parents were public employees, worked extremely hard, and are now travelling the world. Need to see actual numbers that there are a lot of hidden unemployment. Underemployment sure. But I think that is more prevalent in the private economy.

    Point being, there's no conclusive study showing that one particular political system or economic doctrine could serve as a model for all nations. Don't think the Monaco model would be an immediate success across the world. Not a shithole, but not a viable template either.
    Last edited by sundancekid; 3rd July 2013 at 23:21.

  19. #19
    Senior Member geir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billpay View Post
    Just saw this quote, and think it is right on:

    "You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
    You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
    You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
    You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
    You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
    You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence.
    You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."







    Abraham Lincoln
    I sort of agree with the above..............but the strong wouldn't be strong without the weak, the rich wouldn't be rich without the poor and so on.....it's nature, we are just a big lot of self destroying individuals.

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    Here in Britain, a parasitic mother of 11 who has never worked a single day in her life is about to be given the keys to a free 6 bedroom / 3 bathroom custom built house. It's a house valued at 500k paid for, in part, by those who have worked all their lives, struggle to pay their bills, can't afford their own home and are in shared accommodation, still living with their parents, living in a rip off private property etc. Quite often, the scroungers are better off than those who work hard and contribute to society. How can that be right? Where is the real poverty? With those who work or those who don't?
    billpay likes this.

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